16v engine in a MK1 by paul-c

Mini-update: now I have both engines side-by-side, I can figure which parts will need swapping over. I'm using the 9A's water pump, alternator, almost all of its water pipes, a combination of both oil coolers, the DX's pulleys, clutch/flywheel and a couple of its plates and covers.

To my surprise, I found the 9A had been fitted with a 'regular' clutch rather than the DX's clutch inside the flywheel. I guess its something to do with the difference between the 020 and 02A gearboxes. So this meant swapping the pressure plate in addition to the clutch and flywheel. An advantage of this, is that I now have a 'lightened' flywheel since the DX's is definitely lighter than the 9A's.

Anyway, here is a handy little tip to lock the flywheel when undoing the flywheel (or pressure plate) off the engine:



Credit for this idea to BrokeVW! http://www.brokevw.com/pic%20036ws.jpg

Not a lot of progress, I've been busy with work on another car over the xmas period but that's now almost done, so I have the space and time to put towards my own car again!

Meanwhile, most of the parts are now gathered together. Here are some pics, because I know you guys are like Magpies and love shiny things, etc:


Cylinder head is back, after a skim from the local garage


Various parts, mostly new odds and ends. Note the full set of gaskets, KR ECU and Audi WUR (secondhand), engine assembly lube, Bugpack uprated mounts, loads of stonechip and topcoat to paint engine bay

fcuk me!!! when did this happen??? didnt know you were fitting a valver in!!!!

top lad, keep up the good work…i'll be watching the thread..

lowmk1 said

fcuk me!!! when did this happen??? didnt know you were fitting a valver in!!!!

top lad, keep up the good work…i'll be watching the thread..

Well I couldn't have a student like you having more horsepower than me!!!!!

Looking good. Should be a bit of a flyer by the time you've finished…

im loving your workshop laminate floor and a 3 piece suite good lad
   


my mum hated it when i brought various car parts indoors    

The DXs Friction plate, pressure plate and flywheel is a completely dif design to the 9A as its a dif size and the clutch engages differntly, so you couldnt ahve used them with the mk1 box anyway.  I didt realise that until it was apart either, lol.

Looking good  :mrgreen:, bet you cant wait to get it in  8)

Yeah, I simply didn't realise the 9A also used an 02A transmission, and that it mounted differently in the car. I knew I was swapping trannys, due to the hydraulic clutch and cable change, so its just one more thing to swap.

Handy you're here, ManicGTI….. I was going to ask, what did you do regarding water pump and alternator? I am planning to do one of these 3 things:

1. Use DX water pump and 9A alternator
2. Use 9A water pump and alternator
3. Use DX water pump and alternator

I found out today that the water pumps are almost exactly the same, except that the 9A one has a different flange to bolt on the pulley. I was hoping to simply transfer pulleys from one to the other, so I'm using DX pulleys and drivebelt on 9A components - but the water pump won't have it!

In any case, I need to do a trial fit of the ancillaries tomorrow, so I know I have everything needed off the DX before I sell it.

I used all the stuff off the 9A, alternator, pump, pulleys etc.  The 9A alternator on mine was a 90Amp as well, so 'should' be better that 65amp mk1 spec.  The ony change I made from 9A pulley set up was to ditch the extra Power Steering Pulley.

In fact, the German and swedish part numbers for the 9A, DX and KR water pumps are all the same (in fact all the large blockers are)…So dont see why you cant swap the pumps round and just keep whatever pulley matches it.

MY big mistake was to use my existing old mk1 GTi pressure plate……was fairly tired as it was and just slipped like buggery once the valver was in.  Had to pull box out a few months later  .

ManicGTI said

I used all the stuff off the 9A, alternator, pump, pulleys etc.  The 9A alternator on mine was a 90Amp as well, so 'should' be better that 65amp mk1 spec.  The ony change I made from 9A pulley set up was to ditch the extra Power Steering Pulley.

In fact, the German and swedish part numbers for the 9A, DX and KR water pumps are all the same (in fact all the large blockers are)…So dont see why you cant swap the pumps round and just keep whatever pulley matches it.

The water pumps are the same but the face/front cover is different, the 16V has a hole somewhere and also a longer shaft (to clear the camshaft sprockets) and a smaller flange to bolt the pulley to. Its probably possible to swap the flanges from one to another.

I've run through a 'test fit' of all the parts. I think there's 2 variations of the V-belts on a 16V with power steering? I think in that case, yours must be different, if you were able to remove the power steering pump.

The water pump on the 16V has a double pulley, the inner one spins freely while the outer one is driven by the outer double pulley on the crank, and this also drives the PS pump. So it looks like I'll have to keep it.

The 8V pulleys don't fit, and can't be spaced either, because the cambelt sprockets are significantly thicker on the 16V.

I am guessing, if VW did a Mk2 Golf GTI 16V with a 90A alternator and no power steering (or air conditioning), I could use the pulleys and belts off this. Anyway, its something I can change around later.

yeah, theres two PAS pulley set ups on 16Vs, one with two on crankshaft (mine), and the one with two pulleys on water pump.  I only found this out when G60RGE had some over heating probs with his 9Aed mk1.  Turns out his was like yours, and was running the water pump on the free wheeling pulley.  I'm sure he used the 8V pump pulley from my mk1 to sort it though, will have to ask him.  Or find a non PAS KR pulley?  I did a thread on this at the time as was confusing us…

Don't think mk2s came with 90amp alternators, maybe the deisel but certaily not the GTIs.

Dave

ah ha! :

http://www.clubgti.com…2877&highlight=16v+pulley

http://www.vwgolfmk1.o…3605&highlight=16v+pulley

theres ya answer….you need the non PAS Water pump Pulley, leave all the rest 9A spec.

ManicGTI said

yeah, theres two PAS pulley set ups on 16Vs, one with two on crankshaft (mine), and the one with two pulleys on water pump.  I only found this out when G60RGE had some over heating probs with his 9Aed mk1.  Turns out his was like yours, and was running the water pump on the free wheeling pulley.  I'm sure he used the 8V pump pulley from my mk1 to sort it though, will have to ask him.  Or find a non PAS KR pulley?  I did a thread on this at the time as was confusing us…

Don't think mk2s came with 90amp alternators, maybe the deisel but certaily not the GTIs.

Dave

Thanks Dave - having done a little more research on this, the 90A vs 65A alternator is a red herring, since its pulley sits in the same plane either way; and I think there's plenty of scope for adjustment, so the V-belt is the same too.

I know that there are non-PAS Golf Mk2 16Vs, and that the pulley is available, well it exists on ETKA. So I'll go buy one of these pulleys from the VW Dealer, it will be the 4th time this week I've been in there!

Given the variations in engine sources and pulley configurations (for example I bet a number of ex-Passat 9As actually have air con) I don't know how useful it would be to add this into the FAQ, some people may find a 9A with all the right pulleys in the first place?

ManicGTI said

ah ha! :

http://www.clubgti.com…2877&highlight=16v+pulley

http://www.vwgolfmk1.o…3605&highlight=16v+pulley

theres ya answer….you need the non PAS Water pump Pulley, leave all the rest 9A spec.

Yep, didn't do a search around the forums (fora?) but an hour trying out various combinations of pulleys on the engine, plus 10 mins or so looking at ETKA and I had this one solved. It just goes to show, the most useful tool when doing an engine conversion is ETKA! Sure glad I don't have to go into the VW Dealer with a carrier bag full of pulley and try to explain myself!

ManicGTI said

MY big mistake was to use my existing old mk1 GTi pressure plate……was fairly tired as it was and just slipped like buggery once the valver was in.  Had to pull box out a few months later  .

Picking up on this one, my 8V pressure plate (and friction disc) is fairly new. I was going to leave it in place for now, maybe swapping to a 16V 'box and clutch later. I'd be interested to know if there's a cheap way to 'upgrade' the clutch without having to buy the 16V clutch kit, use its pressure plate (greater clamping force, apparently) and then have to only use half of it and throw the friction disc away (or try sell it on).

(As everyone will know, the 16V box uses a 24mm input shaft, compared to an 8V's 22mm shaft. Thus, the friction discs are different, although they are made from the same material, the only difference is in the splines/shaft fitting).

good plan, I'll update the FAQ and make it a bit more clear  :y:

I bought the LUK 8V and 16V clutch kits from GS&F, used the 8V friction plate and 16V pressure plate, and took '16V' clutch back, ahem.  They look the same anyway  

paul_c said

Thanks Dave - having done a little more research on this, the 90A vs 65A alternator is a red herring, since its pulley sits in the same plane either way; and I think there's plenty of scope for adjustment, so the V-belt is the same too.

Sorry, what I meant was that the 90amp alternator is a better one, same fitment, but higher spec.  Its a common upgrade for mk2 guys to put a 90amp one on.

ManicGTI said

I bought the LUK 8V and 16V clutch kits from GS&F, used the 8V friction plate and 16V pressure plate, and took '16V' clutch back, ahem.  They look the same anyway  

What goes around comes around!

Hmmmm, I was thinking in my distant mind about stumping up the ?80 or so for a 16V clutch, however I've just spent so much on this thing already!!! I might have to wait for the engine transplant fairy to pay me a visit……