Gearbox Drive Flange

I'd appreciate some advice on how I might resolve the problem of a damaged drive flange and seal sleeve on my gearbox, (the gearbox part number is 020 301 103 F).
The drive flange is of the "new" type 90mm dia. with a green seal sleeve.  Attached are photos of the damaged parts.
I have tried VWHeritage but they only stock the 100mm type.  When I tried GSF, they asked for a part no, but I cannot find any number on the flange, so they cannot help.
Is it possible to buy the drive flange as a kit, complete with its seal sleeve?  I want to replace both as the shafts of both drive flanges are deeply grooved by the old seals, in addition to the rim damage on one of them.
Does anybody have the relevant part numbers?
Might I have to consider a complete changeover to 100mm flanges, which also then affects the CV joints etc?

Update:-  I have now ordered two 90mm flanges from VW, but so far I cannot source the seal sleeves.  The part number for the drive flange is 020409285N and for the sleeve 020498085A. 

What happened to the ones that was fitted?
found this from the part number.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Golf-CHC-CQB-CJF-DGL-Axle-Flange-90-MM-020409285N-/270604109458

the other part number just shows a repair kit if you google it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Jetta-Front-Axle-Shaft-Seal-Kit-020498085A-CRP-/370920865082

is the part not no 18D in this link?
http://www.partsbase.org/vw/golf-go-eu-1981-99-differential-for-manual-gearbox/

another quick google and found this from the part number
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2506564/
 

mark1gls said

What happened to the ones that was fitted?
found this from the part number.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Golf-CHC-CQB-CJF-DGL-Axle-Flange-90-MM-020409285N-/270604109458

the other part number just shows a repair kit if you google it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Jetta-Front-Axle-Shaft-Seal-Kit-020498085A-CRP-/370920865082

is the part not no 18D in this link?
http://www.partsbase.org/vw/golf-go-eu-1981-99-differential-for-manual-gearbox/

another quick google and found this from the part number
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2506564/
 

Thanks for the reply and the helpful links which I'll study more closely tomorrow.
This is the condition I found them in when I removed the engine/gearbox, so I guess they've had abuse in the past.  Clearly I need to replace the drive flanges as they are worn and damaged. I might get away with the old sleeves, despite the damage, but I'd rather replace them.
I have already ordered the seal repair kit from VWHeritage but they have neither the flanges or the seal sleeve. I am buying the flanges direct from VW.
 The part # I quote for the sleeve was given to me by VW UK based on the chassis and gearbox #s.  As you no doubt know, there are two standards of 90mm flanges with different seal thicknesses. Mine is the later "new" version. The part you suggest looks correct but I'm concerned that it's not the part # quoted by VWUK.   Can you suggest any other UK suppliers who might have the sleeves?

Hi there I had a similar problem and I used this seller on ebay all worked a treat ( autogearshop) ebay item number. 110998988241 hope this helps .  Martin.   

the sleeve 020301192A is still available from vw, 4.98+VAT.

for the flanges look at 1.6 mk2 golf, earlier 1.8 carb mk2, mk3 golf 1.9 non-turbo, though its a bit late as you already ordered some

020498085A is part number for a flange seal kit (flange seal, circlip and dust cap) for earlier VW so no good to you

rubjonny said

the sleeve 020301192A is still available from vw, 4.98+VAT.

for the flanges look at 1.6 mk2 golf, earlier 1.8 carb mk2, mk3 golf 1.9 non-turbo, though its a bit late as you already ordered some

020498085A is part number for a flange seal kit (flange seal, circlip and dust cap) for earlier VW so no good to you

Yes thanks for that.  I've somehow got confused over the sleeve part #,as I've quoted it incorrectly in the earlier post.
I've ordered two now through TPS VW subsidiary.  So all being well, the flanges, seals kit and sleeves are all now on order.
Thanks to all of you for your help!

I'll soon have all the necessary parts to replace the drive flanges, seals etc.
I'd be grateful for advice on the best way to remove the old green seal sleeves without damaging anything. Unfortunately my pullers don't fit securely and before I start trying to lever them out, I'd like to know should I carry on or get a more suitable set of pullers?

I'd have thought you could just crush them, or use hammer and drift to bash them till the collapse inwards and fall out?

rubjonny said

I'd have thought you could just crush them, or use hammer and drift to bash them till the collapse inwards and fall out?

Thanks John, you're probably correct.  Thought I'd ask first as I wouldn't like to crack the casting as it's a bit thin in this area.  I'll be a s gentle as one can be with a hammer and drift!

worth a read
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4490717-Installing-green-sleeves-and-seals-on-020-transmission-axle-stubs-help-tool

rubjonny said

worth a read
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4490717-Installing-green-sleeves-and-seals-on-020-transmission-axle-stubs-help-tool

Great! Thanks, now that is useful!

rubjonny said

the sleeve 020301192A is still available from vw, 4.98+VAT.

for the flanges look at 1.6 mk2 golf, earlier 1.8 carb mk2, mk3 golf 1.9 non-turbo, though its a bit late as you already ordered some

020498085A is part number for a flange seal kit (flange seal, circlip and dust cap) for earlier VW so no good to you

I seem to have cocked-up somewhere regarding the flange part number, as the new flanges (020409285N) are different to the original as can be seen from the attached pics, where the new flange is shown on the right.  The shoulder area which carries the oil seal is just over 3mm longer than that of the original.  The result is that the flange spring has insufficient room to compress to allow the circlip to be fitted.  However the two types have the same overall length.
Or is it the case that I should also have ordered a compatible set of springs and thrust washers which are shorter than the originals?
Hopefully I can return these flanges for the proper ones, assuming they are in stock, but I am having difficulty trying to identify a different number to that we've already discussed.  I'd be most grateful yet again if you could advise what number is correct for my gearbox, serial FD10022, fitted to a 1982 Mk1 Cabrio, or do I just need to get new springs and thrust washers?
Or will I have to consider machining the new flanges to size?!


 

rubjonny said

the sleeve 020301192A is still available from vw, 4.98+VAT.

for the flanges look at 1.6 mk2 golf, earlier 1.8 carb mk2, mk3 golf 1.9 non-turbo, though its a bit late as you already ordered some

020498085A is part number for a flange seal kit (flange seal, circlip and dust cap) for earlier VW so no good to you

Also the new oil seals are a little thicker than the originals. There is also a difference in the depth of the oil seal sleeve, as can maybe be seen in the attached pics.  I did manage to get the circlip fitted using a flange compression tool, but the flanges were then so tightly pressed in that it was impossible to rotate them by hand.  They should rotate freely but perhaps the seal sleeves and oil seals are also not correct.  Perhaps the flange is prevented from rotating freely by being jammed up against the oil seal.  It's as though the flange seal sleeve and oil seal should be recessed deeper into the gearbox to allow for more freedom of movement of the flange.
In summary the oil seal sleeves and oil seals are slightly different to the originals in addition to the difference in the flanges mentioned in the previous post.  I confess I am now confused as to where exactly I am going wrong.  I suspect that I am using the wrong part numbers but I'm at a loss as to how to confirm what the correct parts should be.  Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I'd really appreciate having clarification of where I'm going wrong!

ok this is a weird one, your old flages dont appear to be the same as the old or new type as shown on brokes page:
Flange Types

I've checked aghain and all the numbers are correct for an 82 FD box so I dont know whats going on here, are there any numbers visible on the old flanges?

the pressure springs are part number 020409379B and only 2.18+VAT each so are worth a go I suppose.

it may be worth emailing broke about this one direct, if anyone will know it'll be him!

rubjonny said

ok this is a weird one, your old flages dont appear to be the same as the old or new type as shown on brokes page:
Flange Types

I've checked aghain and all the numbers are correct for an 82 FD box so I dont know whats going on here, are there any numbers visible on the old flanges?

the pressure springs are part number 020409379B and only 2.18+VAT each so are worth a go I suppose.

it may be worth emailing broke about this one direct, if anyone will know it'll be him!

Unfortunately there are no numbers on the old flange that I can find.  I've ordered oil seals from Hayley's that are not as thick as those supplied from VW and I'll take your advice and order the springs.  Also I'll try BrokeVW as you suggest.  If the worst comes to the worst, one way or another, I'll get them machined as a last resort.
Many thanks for the advice and I'll keep you posted.

Brynboru said

Or is it the case that I should also have ordered a compatible set of springs and thrust washers which are shorter than the originals?
Hopefully I can return these flanges for the proper ones, assuming they are in stock, but I am having difficulty trying to identify a different number to that we've already discussed.  I'd be most grateful yet again if you could advise what number is correct for my gearbox, serial FD10022, fitted to a 1982 Mk1 Cabrio, or do I just need to get new springs and thrust washers?
Or will I have to consider machining the new flanges to size?!

The spring part numbers haven't changed from 1981 to the end of the MK3 years, 020409379B.

I can see where the spring would have a harder time with the new flanges, there is less room. The flange for the FD trans is right, 020409285N, that is the "new" 90mm flange. The spring is right, the flange is right, so it must be correct per VW numbers.

I wouldn't bother machining the flanges, the springs are much cheaper. Grind those down a touch if you have to, but it sounds like you were able to compress them and fit the circlip, so you may not need to grind it.

Brynboru said

Also the new oil seals are a little thicker than the originals. There is also a difference in the depth of the oil seal sleeve, as can maybe be seen in the attached pics.

The depth did change, from 10mm to 6.4mm, but there shouldn't be a change in the thickness. Have a look at the old and new seals, look for the dimensions on the face of the seal… one should be something like 50-65-10 and the other possibly 50-65-6.4 but both should be 50x65, for a 7.5mm thickness.

Brynboru said

I did manage to get the circlip fitted using a flange compression tool, but the flanges were then so tightly pressed in that it was impossible to rotate them by hand.

The compression of the spring and difficulty in seating the circlip shouldn't have an effect on them being spun. You're basically mashing the flange into the diff carrier so with both flanges fitted you should be able to spin both flanges the same direction and roll the diff over inside (have it out of gear).

You WILL notice increased effort in trying to "break" the diff by turning one flange only or by turning them opposite of each other, as the spring compression will be higher and this mashes the bronze conical thrust ring tighter onto the shaft, which will resist turning the flanges independent of the diff carrier. This is essentially like a 40% or 80% shim kit being added.

If you were able to fit the circlip, my inclination is that the parts are correct thus far.

Brynboru said

They should rotate freely but perhaps the seal sleeves and oil seals are also not correct.  Perhaps the flange is prevented from rotating freely by being jammed up against the oil seal.  It's as though the flange seal sleeve and oil seal should be recessed deeper into the gearbox to allow for more freedom of movement of the flange.

It is possible the flange is rubbing the seal, it looks like your green sleeve needs tapped in further. Here are several different trans showing the green sleeve, you can see it sits into the case a bit further…





And this is another pic, the sleeve is damaged from shipping and is slightly bent, pushed in deeper than it should be on the right side, but you can see on the left side there is a minimal amount of gap between the casing and the sleeve.


Compare those pics to the pic of your sleeve, where you can see the steps in your sleeve, and you can see how it appears that it needs to be driven in deeper into the casing.



Your sleeve also looks a little swollen or warped or something…. bulbous almost. Was it difficult installing it, and how did you install it?
I've found the best way is to tap it in evenly with a hammer, protecting the seal sleeve lip but it should be able to take a pretty decent tap from a mallet:



The sleeve part number never changed either, so the thinner sleeve you removed from the trans has the same part number and must have been superseded by VW, which tells me the new sleeve should work just fine.

I wish I had more info, but unfortunately I do not, and the early 80's trans went through a few changes and I'm just not on top of them all with the flanges, seals, and axle lengths.

Brian
 

BrokeVW said

Your sleeve also looks a little swollen or warped or something…. bulbous almost. Was it difficult installing it, and how did you install it?
I've found the best way is to tap it in evenly with a hammer, protecting the seal sleeve lip but it should be able to take a pretty decent tap from a mallet:



The sleeve part number never changed either, so the thinner sleeve you removed from the trans has the same part number and must have been superseded by VW, which tells me the new sleeve should work just fine.

I wish I had more info, but unfortunately I do not, and the early 80's trans went through a few changes and I'm just not on top of them all with the flanges, seals, and axle lengths.

Brian
 

Thanks for your rapid response and comprehensive advice, and thanks to rubjonny for suggesting contacting you.  Your advice on the sleeve is I reckon spot on, as clearly I have not managed to bed in the sleeves as per the original and as per your photos.   I had driven them in with a large diameter socket shrouded in a cloth, which meant I was not driving them in across the external lip edge of the flange but on their inside shoulder.  I thought that would have less risk of warping the sleeve and I didn't want to thump them too hard.  I'll try driving them with a block across the flange, but as I have applied sealant to them, it may not work, in which case I'll remove them and get a new set.
Now I'm confident that all the part numbers are correct, I'll make sure that everything is fully bedded down.
Many thanks for taking the time to share your expertise and for restoring my confidence!!