MK1 Rivage Cabriolet - Which engine conversion? 2.0 16v, G60 or 1.8T?

Hello,

I'm starting to research into engine conversions for my GTi Rivage Cabriolet and I'm getting information overload - My head is spinning with what's what.

The Rivage is a second car and a summer toy, mileage is limited (If I do more than 1,500 miles a year I'll be surprised) and I want more oomph, without losing character. MPG isn't a concern, reliability and maintenance isn't a major factor (as long as it doesn't pop every time I use it) an I want addictive power that makes people grip onto their seats, silly power would be great but I want it to be usable .

I've narrowed it down to either:

2.0 16v. It screams and it's rev happy, it's good for 170bhp with some simple mods, reliable, same block size so simple to fit. I'd want to use a 9a rather than an ABF due to the period of the engine, rawness, block size and it'll look very OE in the bay using KE-Jet. I'd get a full Corrado 16v for the conversion and run it on the standard management/airbox etc with a Scirocco 16v inlet (for the time being). Future proof for more power I could go high compression and ITB's if I got bored. I had a MK2 ABF a few years back and it was my favourite car/engine combo I've had. Enough power to have fun and scare passengers but not so much the car became stupid and unruly.

G60. The noise, torque and good for 200bhp+. Reliable enough for me and being period with the same size block. I'd get a full Corrado for the conversion and do it OE. I had a Corrado G60 with 220bhp a few years back and that was just about quick enough for me not to want much more, I image more so in the MK1. Future wise I can go 16vG60 - I mean, that's the ultimate MK1 engine, right?

1.8 20vt - I initially discounted this engine due to being too modern, non-period and with it's lack of character. I had a MK1 TT Quattro Sport kicking out 285bhp. It was silly quick but the engine was just too refined and all the sensors/pipework caused nothing but expensive ballache. In a MK1 golf a lot of the pipework becomes redundant so it should be simplified with less to go wrong. I've viewed a few videos on Youtube and they look silly fast, sound and look raw and come across as a perfect update to the original MK1 8v engine. The conversion confuses me having so many derivatives of the 1.8t engine. I'd want to go BAM as I prefer to look and the power options but concerned it'll be to much power to be usable, plus a bit of a bastadisation  of a Rivage being non period.

Thoughts people!  

how good are you with and do you have access to:
a) spanners
b) soldering iron
c) timing light
d) co meter (a pro one one, not the cheap diy kits!)

rubjonny said

how good are you with and do you have access to:
a) spanners
b) soldering iron
c) timing light
d) co meter (a pro one one, not the cheap diy kits!)

a) spanners - Yes
b) soldering iron - Yes
c) timing light - Yes
d) co meter (a pro one one, not the cheap diy kits!) - Yes (got a mate who works in an MOT place).

I did the MK2 ABF conversion to CE1 car myself and had the engine out on Saturday and new one in and drivable to work on Monday morning. Your guides helped a lot, I've never thanked you. So thank you!

In My Corrado VR6 I upgraded to OBD2 and upgraded the ABS to later teves20 (was the second person to do it). Once again, your wiring diagrams were a god send.

Pretty much the only thing I haven't attempted is a bottom end and gearbox rebuild, the rest doesn't bother me.

The conversion themselves don't worry me in the slightest. I'll properly research which ever one I go for and do it properly or not at all, I just need to decide which one!

alrighty then the world is your oyster when it comes to engine swaps, kjet or kejet all good as you have the skills/access to equipment for fine tuning em so happy.

I only ask as if you didn't have a decent co meter then i would be saying abf management or more modern only, as theres no faffing at all on that side its all ecu controlled I had a gunsen 'pro' one and being run over by my mate was the best thing for it as it was total garbage

if you want my opinion it would be abf engine, with abf management, I think it wins hands down over anything else thanks to the fact they are cheap to get, easy to install, all the parts you could ever want are cheap and easy to get, totally bomb proof, and no messing about with screws and such. if they act up plug your laptop in and you can almost always find out whats up without breakin a sweat. at least 150 bhp as standard but often around 160bhp, 170-180 is easy to achive and relatively cheap. figures up towards of 200 can be had if you plan carefully and pick the right bits, sometimes more with a very good mapper. boost is easy to add, 2x gaskets and the turbo/charger kit plus a good map and aftermarket ecu of your choice if you really must have more!

tbh a 1.8 16v is plenty in a mk1 shell, i didnt want for anything else in mind that plus the 1.6 gti short ratio box was a proper little ripper, didnt bother with any mods at all when I built it.

more modern 20v engines with dbw are handy if you want nice extras such as cruise, dead easy to add on those. they're also all over the shop now with them being a few generations old parts are cheap and lots of upgrades that have been tried and tested by many.

thing is when you start going over 170 you start getting into 020 box killing territory, so 02a/j needed with more expense on top gettign brackets and hydro clutch or cable conversion kits. clutches and flywheels cost more, plus with these kid of power levels you'll probably want an lsd so you can actually put the power down rather than wheelspinning all over the place…

if you really want it original a 2.0 bottom end or tsr 1.9 for a period feel perhaps. options galore!

rubjonny said

alrighty then the world is your oyster when it comes to engine swaps, kjet or kejet all good as you have the skills/access to equipment for fine tuning em so happy.

I only ask as if you didn't have a decent co meter then i would be saying abf management or more modern only, as theres no faffing at all on that side its all ecu controlled I had a gunsen 'pro' one and being run over by my mate was the best thing for it as it was total garbage

if you want my opinion it would be abf engine, with abf management, I think it wins hands down over anything else thanks to the fact they are cheap to get, easy to install, all the parts you could ever want are cheap and easy to get, totally bomb proof, and no messing about with screws and such. if they act up plug your laptop in and you can almost always find out whats up without breakin a sweat. at least 150 bhp as standard but often around 160bhp, 170-180 is easy to achive and relatively cheap. figures up towards of 200 can be had if you plan carefully and pick the right bits, sometimes more with a very good mapper. boost is easy to add, 2x gaskets and the turbo/charger kit plus a good map and aftermarket ecu of your choice if you really must have more!

tbh a 1.8 16v is plenty in a mk1 shell, i didnt want for anything else in mind that plus the 1.6 gti short ratio box was a proper little ripper, didnt bother with any mods at all when I built it.

more modern 20v engines with dbw are handy if you want nice extras such as cruise, dead easy to add on those. they're also all over the shop now with them being a few generations old parts are cheap and lots of upgrades that have been tried and tested by many.

thing is when you start going over 170 you start getting into 020 box killing territory, so 02a/j needed with more expense on top gettign brackets and hydro clutch or cable conversion kits. clutches and flywheels cost more, plus with these kid of power levels you'll probably want an lsd so you can actually put the power down rather than wheelspinning all over the place…

if you really want it original a 2.0 bottom end or tsr 1.9 for a period feel perhaps. options galore!

I knew you'd say ABF! It is a great engine, I loved it in my MK2 for all the reasons you said. I just fancied the rawness from the 9A and the originality in the engine bay with the KE-Jet pipework and original airbox location. The car is so rarely used I can live with the old engine workings and diagnostics - In fact, I'd prefer it; you just can't replicate that mechanical tuning old cars used to have. The car is purely a toy so I can afford to go silly with it.

I would be going 02A regardless, my current box knocks and I want future proof, an LSD would be on the cards I think (finance depending).

Not fussed about mod cons really, that's what my daily is for, it's nice to jump from a brand new car to an old all mechanical driven car and appreciate for what it is. Part of the charm. This is the thing which put me off the ABF and 20vt. Too modern and too refined.

you could always drop the k/ke-jet stuff on an abf if one comes up cheap, i can testify you still get the rawness that way I had mine on kr management for a bit before i sourced all the abf stuff

rubjonny said

you could always drop the k/ke-jet stuff on an abf if one comes up cheap, i can testify you still get the rawness that way I had mine on kr management for a bit before i sourced all the abf stuff

What's the advantages of doing this? My concern would be the block length and sump as I would plan on lowering and the roads around here are rubbish.

I wonder if 200bhp+ is achievable on a 2.0 16v. hmmmmmm.  

non really apart from the abf engines are newer and easier to find, there are slight advantages with the block beign a bit taller when it comes to the internals but a 9a/6a thats been fettled will still end up about the same.

sump side it would be the same as a 9a/6a with the equivalent sump installed, the alloy one is worth changing for steel if you plan to lower it a fair way as they're prone to shatter.

with them being a bit taller, thinking on it may have bonnet clearance issues with the kjet? might only be scirocco issue as they dont have so much room. It will go in a golf with the abf inlet (not much use when you want kjet mind) and you need to choose your manifold wisely as some hit the tunnel.

200 bhp is achievable if you have lots of money and find a good mapper

rubjonny said

non really apart from the abf engines are newer and easier to find, there are slight advantages with the block beign a bit taller when it comes to the internals but a 9a/6a thats been fettled will still end up about the same.

sump side it would be the same as a 9a/6a with the equivalent sump installed, the alloy one is worth changing for steel if you plan to lower it a fair way as they're prone to shatter.

with them being a bit taller, thinking on it may have bonnet clearance issues with the kjet? might only be scirocco issue as they dont have so much room. It will go in a golf with the abf inlet (not much use when you want kjet mind) and you need to choose your manifold wisely as some hit the tunnel.

200 bhp is achievable if you have lots of money and find a good mapper

Ahh, I always thought the ABF sat lower due to the extra length, not higher. Every day is a school day!

I just think the ABF fuel system looks too modern in the MK1 bay. At least with the KE-Jet you can grab a Scirocco 16v Manifold and use the original airbox etc. I suppose I need to look at my options. 

'just grab a scirocco manifold' if only

yeah the extra height is right on top of the block deck so it pushes the inlet up a bit, rest of it is same dimentions to the mountings and such

they made the cab right up to 92ish, so you could argue its a prototype with the abf engine in from a 92 mk3

rubjonny said

'just grab a scirocco manifold' if only

yeah the extra height is right on top of the block deck so it pushes the inlet up a bit, rest of it is same dimentions to the mountings and such

they made the cab right up to 92ish, so you could argue its a prototype with the abf engine in from a 92 mk3

Yeah, I know they are rare, they often pop up for sale at a 'healthy' price though!

I'm looking at ABF options now. would ITB's fit under the bonnet with an ABF?

you'll be reet, its clearance towards the back between the throttle body and bonnet you have to worry. with carbs/tbs its the rad you got to worry about, try to get a shllow one so decent airflow can be had direct or some kind of airbox to pull air in from the side. lots of interesting designs about!

rubjonny said

you'll be reet, its clearance towards the back between the throttle body and bonnet you have to worry. with carbs/tbs its the rad you got to worry about, try to get a shllow one so decent airflow can be had direct or some kind of airbox to pull air in from the side. lots of interesting designs about!

Just looking into ITB's. 180bhp seems like a realistic figure on a standard engine. I'm getting confused by the engine management side of things, can I run them on the original Digifant or would I need stand alone?

some have managed it, but standalone would make it more flexible in future. the abf ecu is pretty mapable though the main thing is it likes a nice vacuum feed on the stock map otherwise it gets all upset but this can apparently be worked around.

basically have a word with your local mapper see what they say about it, as they're the ones who will be tuning it up to match the hardware

I can confirm jenvey dth on the abf with 90mm bell mouth ( old term) get very friendly with the bonnet, because of the angle they leave the engine.

Dave Walker at Emerald is great with throttle bodies - Home of the Emerald K6 aftermarket standalone ECU There is a great article on the Emerald site about a Caterham going from carbs to throttle bodies, he has also done a lot of real world testing on trumpet shapes and lengths

rubjonny said

some have managed it, but standalone would make it more flexible in future. the abf ecu is pretty mapable though the main thing is it likes a nice vacuum feed on the stock map otherwise it gets all upset but this can apparently be worked around.

basically have a word with your local mapper see what they say about it, as they're the ones who will be tuning it up to match the hardware

lhasadreams said

Dave Walker at Emerald is great with throttle bodies - Home of the Emerald K6 aftermarket standalone ECU There is a great article on the Emerald site about a Caterham going from carbs to throttle bodies, he has also done a lot of real world testing on trumpet shapes and lengths

Thanks Gents. Aftermarket it is then. This adds to the price a tad and complexity.

abfmk1 said

I can confirm jenvey dth on the abf with 90mm bell mouth ( old term) get very friendly with the bonnet, because of the angle they leave the engine.

I was looking at the Jenvey DTH and the angle is pretty hefty. I've seen a few build threads and they look very close! What other options do I have?



To be fair, after doing a lot of research, ITB's look and sound awesome, intand throttle response and high revving is what I love. 200bhp would be my target, it's going to cost me £2,000 for the basic kit, plus the engine and all the other consumables and parts, brackets, fixings etc. I can't help but feel it's a lot of expense for little gain. I've never experienced a ITB car so I might be talking rubbish. I can't help but feel a G60 has more bang per buck?  

well you could always do it in stages, abf all standfard first, then later on go itbs.

Toyotec has a great thread on how to megasquirt an abf, so you could go straight to that. or convert it at the same time as going itbs
http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?203746

main thing with the G60 is the charge. the engien itself is mostly 8v digifant with sparkly bits dropped in. but that charger, this is where you spend your money. that is, if you dont want it to explode and trash your engine!

keeping it std abf saves you money trying to build the kjet fuel system, as the pipes and accumulator are hard to find and/or expensive. on abf you can use rubber/plastic lines and keep it all for itbs. that and it has a crank sensor which means its a bit more flexible when it comes to aftermarket kit. you can run ms on a kr/9a dizzy mind, but dizzy + crank gives you more options. food for thought anyway   

How about some webers for the old school look, or non dth jenveys on a weber manifold for bonnet clearance, as the dcoe manifold keeps the carbs level by pointing down/forward.

Carbs are such a backward step though !! :-)