Is it possible to remove cabby rear window without damaging the hood or frame?

HI Guys,

I want to remove my rear window and seal and clean up the window frame in situ with a wire brush and sandpaper and then paint it with Por15. Once the paint is dry I was then going to put the window and seal back in.
Is it possible to remove the rear window and seal and then put it all back together after the work is complete without damaging anything??

cheers in advance.
KP
 

yes/no.

Removing it is easy.
Removing the 200+ Staples holding the vinyl/canvas to the frame is the hard part.  

You have nothing to hold on to to re-staple it and get it to look like you took it off.

Digging out the staples if the vinyl is old may cause more harm than you are trying to fix.

Here is a thread that I did on how to replace your rear window,  It has pictures of what I mean.
Cabriolet Rear Window Replacement. | Volkswagen Owners Club Forum

There isn't a whole lot of material to work with if the window was installed.


Then going back you have to have a Good Stapler and SS Staples…  

I am not saying you can't do it, but it is a whole lot easier to replace the top.  

Prying the window and seal out to clean the seal and reseat and possibly silicone it to prevent leaks, but that is as far as I personally would go.  

Remember that when you pull the staples out of older tops, you have created a perforation in the material that will pull apart at the holes in a chain like paper out of a spiral notebook… so be warned that
removing the material may make you install a new top.

Removing the top doable.

Placing silicone over the staples and re-sealing the window gasket doable.

Removing the staples and not damaging the top and getting it right is almost as if you want to play russian roulette with a Automatic, or a crapshoot playing with loaded dice.

I've been considering doing this as the frame is rusty and is letting in a lot of water.

I've bought a new frame and seal. Would taking the glass and seal out, cleaning up the vinyl and then replacing the window with the new seal and sealant (and leaving the existing frame in situ) cure the leak, or is a rusty frame a leaky frame?

There's another guide here that makes it sound dead easy. I wasn't entirely convinced…

http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/RearWindowReplacement.pdf

I think there would not be enough material to get the hood tight enough if you removed the frame. therefore I'm thinking I would not attempt to replace the frame unless I was replacing the entire hood.
I'm hoping when the window is removed there is enough of the frame still entact to just be able to clean it up and Por15 it. Then new sealant and put window and rubber seal back in. My worry would be that the frame is so badly rusted that I end up having to replace it and the entire hood too.
I'm locked in the horns of that dilemma!

By the way Brian, if we have to remove the staples and fix the insert with rva, what grading of rva would you use?
And how much of the frame is revealed after removing the window??

Cheers



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I have done this, its a little fiddly but entirely doable.

rubjonny said

I have done this, its a little fiddly but entirely doable.

Thanks Jonny - is it still a fiddle, even without replacing staples or replacing hood? I just wan to take the window out and put it back in again after a clean-up.

ta

oh no thats easy enough push it out from the inside give the rubber seal a really good clean to get all the old sealant out and refit with fresh sealant round the outside

rubjonny said

oh no thats easy enough push it out from the inside give the rubber seal a really good clean to get all the old sealant out and refit with fresh sealant round the outside

Top man thanks. Do you know how much of the frame is exposed once the windows is out?

not a great deal, if you look at brianos link can see the hood material covers all the outside and inner lip, so you'll only see the bit on the inside a bit more clearly once the seal is off

rubjonny said

not a great deal, if you look at brianos link can see the hood material covers all the outside and inner lip, so you'll only see the bit on the inside a bit more clearly once the seal is off

Ah, I see that now.
Do you think it better to put a bead of sealant around the inside over the staples first and let that dry before putting the windows back in? and then running a second bead of sealant under the rubber seal from the outside once the window is back in?

I'm no pro hood fitter, I've only done my own car. I did mine the way it was advised on here which was to run a bead of non-setting mastic round the outside once the glass is in. which was a right pain in the rear I can tell you

Brianos method looks a lot easier, just I would suggest you put something inside to protect the shelf carpet/seat/boot form any stray silicone.

even if its not enough you can always add more sealant after so you wont loose anything

KPCabrio said

I think there would not be enough material to get the hood tight enough if you removed the frame. therefore I'm thinking I would not attempt to replace the frame unless I was replacing the entire hood.
I'm hoping when the window is removed there is enough of the frame still entact to just be able to clean it up and Por15 it. Then new sealant and put window and rubber seal back in. My worry would be that the frame is so badly rusted that I end up having to replace it and the entire hood too.
I'm locked in the horns of that dilemma!

By the way Brian, if we have to remove the staples and fix the insert with rva, what grading of rva would you use?
And how much of the frame is revealed after removing the window??

Cheers



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I don't have a clue as to what RVA is?
If you Carefully remove the staples, and if they are rusty they can break when you pull them out.  But the issue is getting the bits out after.  What I have seen is that the rust will break the bond of the glue to the frame and insert allowing the insert to "Pucker" or be pushed away from the frame.

I have repaired the insert (which is a hard Plastic) with JB-weld quick.  It is about 3/4 the hardness of the JB-Weld full, and will take a Staple

To re-glue missing Chunks and breaks.



Then used a Dremel tool to shape and smooth it.

When it has separated from the frame (held in by Glue)
I have found that I could place the repaired insert into the frame.  From the rear I drilled really small Pilot holes through the frame into the plastic, I used a Drill stop so I couldn't over drill (rubber hose cut 1/4 inch shorter than the drill bit in the chuck of the drill.  This was so I could use very small pan headed sheet metal screws to hold the frame insert to the Steel frame…  On the Back or out side of the frame they will not show and if you paint them black they never will from the front seat, and only you will know.

I had issues on a Super Beetle (78) holding the oak insert back in the frame as glues failed the stapeling.

The screws when placed in the back of the frame held the insert securely, and the re-staple of the top material
wouldn't break the bond of the glue. Trick learned and applied to Cabbies.

 I have used JB-weld Full strength on the frame, then placed the insert back in.  I then screwed in by hand about 20 or so itty-bitty screws to secure the insert to the frame so it would be rock hard on the setting of the glue and held fast to the frame.

Which sounds easy to remove and leave the frame intact, but the Straps at the top of the window are held in check by the top material.  As the Straps go through the headliner and frame material.




You have but to pry out the plastic dowel that holds the strap into the frame to remove the top pivot point.
On Frame re-conditioning, where it is rusted severely to the lip, I have had to cutin and weld new metal, then grind down the welds on the inside and a tad on the outside.  I usually clean all the rust with a wire wheel on a Drill as I find it is quicker.  You have to get the inside lip at the matings of the metal to the same level as the original so your seal when placed back on the lip doesn't pucker causing a possible leak.

I use a Rust Convertor as the bare steel Primer, 2 coats, then Primer it, self etching primers have an acid, so I don't use them.  After the primer is settled I use 2 coats of Krylon Matte or Satin black.  Now that the frame is repaired, and Painted.  I can safely re-install the insert screws and glue.

Chortle has had as many top installs as I, I am up in the 20's  and the tricks I learned along the way.

What I do know is that if your top is Aged, and not flexible you may have a ton of issues.  (vinyl and Canvas) get really really Brittle…. that is why extreme care is paramount.  It is also why I said removing the staples can cause a perforation of the material and when you go to re-attach it, it can peel apart.

I would also suggest that if you go this route, that on going back you raise the top and secure it at mid-up (I use a Broom Stick and 2 Vice Grips so that the tension is off the frame and vinyl and you can more easily? try to re-staple.

An electric stapler is a good thing to have over a Hand stapler, just be sure to seat the staples   I have a couple of Pneumatic staplers, as well as a great 40 year old Hand stapler….(which is what I started out using to replace my first top.) After the 3rd top, I got a pneumatic stapler to save my hands…

Prior to replacing the window/seal into the frame I use RTV (silicone) over the Staples, to stop any chance at water in. Thin not heavy, and I use a color that isn't seen, white for white tops black for black, and Clear for all others.  This is seen from the frame side and can easily be wiped off while wet.

How much of the frame is exposed after removing the 200-300 staples and carefully peeling back the vinyl.  All of it.  That was the hard part.  There are 4 10mm bolts at the bottom corners (2 each side) and the 2 straps at the top and with a little luck you can remove the frame off the car through the opening so you can get to it to clean and paint.

Personally to me if the top is older than 5 years, I would do this when I replaced the top.  I wouldn't try this on later or older tops.  It is far safer to add Silicone under the lip of the top to seal it prior to replacing the top.

A quick shot of the stapes that are removed.  I find a small screw driver under the staple and a quick pry to lift a leg.  I then use a pair of Diagonal cutters to grip the staple to remove it. If a leg breaks on the staple then I try to get it out with a smaller set of dykes.  Worst case is I have to grind the broken staple down as I can't get it out. but that is after the material is removed.

The more you know the better off you are at the attempt.

 

Thats is very useful info Briano  - and yeah RTV is what I meant sorry.

Anyway disaster has struck!!

Managed to get  the window out OK only to reveal that the frame is broken in bottom left corner. Looks like the metal has snapped where the 2 bolts are screwed onto frame. So that is going to have to come out to get repaired/replaced. So I'm going to have to remove the staples and try to fit the existing hood as best I can - The hood itself seems in pretty decent condition so want to avoid replacing that at this stage.



Is there such a thing as stainless steel staples?









 

Is there such a thing as stainless steel staples?

Yes but they cost more and you have to look for them.





 Ouch…. That is usually a sign that your Window Pivots at the bottom are sticky, and over the years it can cause torsion tears at that area.  There are 2 pivot points on the rear window on each brace or bracket,  you have to oil them and work them until they are freely moving.  I figure that when I can spin them with one finger they are ok.  This also causes the window to bind and rip the top.
as well as not properly going up or down squarely.

If it were me, I think I would be looking for a new frame, and I have the welder…..

 

Managed to get my hands on another frame and plastic insert. Any tips on getting the insert out without breaking it?
so far I've tried a heat gun, Stanley knife, And patience….
 

if the new frame and insert is ok just swap it all over? why are you trying to remove the insert?

rubjonny said

if the new frame and insert is ok just swap it all over? why are you trying to remove the insert?

x4

Your Old frame is toast, taking the insert out on a good frame isn't a wise thing.  You can spray the Be-jeezers out of it with Rust convertors if it is Rusty, or clean it up a wee bit with a wire brush and then primer and paint.  

The replacement frame is much better than the one I have but still a bit thin in places. Was going to remove the insert and weld in some repairs.
I figured if I'm putting in another  frame I might as well fix it up best I can first.


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Decided against removing the insert and just cleaning up as best I can using Briano's advice. Does anyone know what length of staples I need? Managed to source 10mm stainless staples on ebay - would they be too long??
ta.

KP