R/H/Side Direct Action Servo Conversion

Sorry to throw a spanner into the works, but how does the servo/MC improve actual braking distances anyway?  As I understand things, all cars (with properly adjusted brakes) will be able to lock the wheels, with enough force applied to the brake pedal. So even with the stock servo,master cylinder, calipers, discs, pads, rear drums and shoes, it would not be the braking system itself which influenced stopping distance but:

- tyre contact area
- coefficient of friction of the tyre (this varies with different road surfaces)

The master cylinder, servo and any linkage arrangement merely alter the 'feel' of the brakes to the driver, these can be quantified as 3 things:

- brake pedal travel for a given amount of deceleration
- brake pedal force required, for a given amount of deceleration
- variation from linear response*

*ie, the amount of 'play' in the system ie amount the pedal is pressed down before any braking occurs, and the amount of 'stretch' of extra pedal distance or force, during very heavy braking

So the 'upgrade' being talked about, isn't really a brake upgrade in terms of actual performance, more of the perceived feel by the driver. Pedal boxes offer this too, plus being able to address the brake balance issues which race car setup demands (ie during a race, the fuel is used up and tyres wear unevenly, so brake balance needs to be altered dynamically and manually by the driver).

Paul you have it pretty much bang on the head, the big factor is the grip between the tyre and the tarmac, in theory any car should be able to lock the wheels provided enough force is applied to the brake pedal…but this isnt always possible unless you have some ery big legs and pull on the steering wheel (Im think old minis here before they fitted a servo   )

the other thing is the disc size, smaller discs are more likely to suffer from fade under repeated hard use - unless a higher temp pad is used etc etc, BUT ABS will not help in this situation really as the co-eff of friction between the pad and disc has been reduced to heat. (one of the reasons I run a larger disc set up  :wink: )

Ill stop rambling on now        but basically Pauls answer is correct  ops:

Golfgod, you have pm.

I havnt read any more of your posts as i realise i may of done a few things the wrong way and upset a few of you! and to those ive upset i do appologise, Thers no point causing heated debates by responding to any soured posts so my last word untill the attaking with each other stops is this please go to photobucket and search   VWtopwerks, View the photos then if you honestly think im some of the various titles i have been labled with feel free to really have a good old giggle at my expense other than that i hope this does something to clarify the debate on my part and show i only meant well an had no intention of deliberately undermining anyones status in regards to advice they may give and how many may view them in the future so im trying to say a big sorry! i hope you like what you see!

there you go, I've linked the pic for you. Are there any more pics available ?

Sorry couldn't resist!

Paul C! eeeerrr... i just dont know whats all that about? are you a joker cos i dont think im the most stupid man in the world but i no i dont have the intelligence to understand your point can someone please translate?

golfgod said

I havnt read any more of your posts as i realise i may of done a few things the wrong way and upset a few of you! and to those ive upset i do appologise, Thers no point causing heated debates by responding to any soured posts so my last word untill the attaking with each other stops is this please go to photobucket and search   VWtopwerks, View the photos then if you honestly think im some of the various titles i have been labled with feel free to really have a good old giggle at my expense other than that i hope this does something to clarify the debate on my part and show i only meant well an had no intention of deliberately undermining anyones status in regards to advice they may give and how many may view them in the future so im trying to say a big sorry! i hope you like what you see!

no ones attacked anyone else, some of us have just pointed out where you have called some of the other members childish names,

plus any other pics? like how the bulkheads been moded/any reinforcemnt to stop flex? also any pics of the pedal box? and finally any of it with an engine in there? as i think it will be very very tight

Yeah and how did this all come about? I came on here said what i did then what happens? i recieve a fake pic then some of you start layin in to me with crap like "its nothing new really". " done it my self" then it gets worse! Well i took a few days to think about all this and my people this end all said the same thing to me why are you gettin all fired up over a bit of envy? cos youve obviously hit a few raw nerves where this mod is concerned, maybe theyre right who cares now anyway youve seen one pic the rest are on photobucket as VWtopwerks ,All im out to do is more than most and that is all i can give in regard to info on this car cos as you can see ive gone to a lot of time and trouble to find out what can and cant be done to the mk1 even with the new bulkhead over panels which i made by hand you see even those are gona be available cheap as chips and when skimmed and painted oh you know! Forget about pics of the hardware behind the bulkhead i`d be mad to show that now wouldnt i? but you will see it soon, it aint all about me you know!

If someone comes along and says "you've been doing it wrong for the past 20 years, do it like this, its better" then people are going to want technical details to munch over. This is a forum so gives a unique opportunity to ask questions and engage in dialogue. This is where you've fallen down (in my opinion) - because you've not been able to step back and consider basic physical principles and well-established theory and practice in brake design and performance. To help us out:

- Engineering qualifications, or detailed experience
- Explanation of coefficient of friction of the tyre-road (formula would be nice too….)
- Pertinant engineering/physical measurements, which can be used to quantify an improvement in braking
- Explanation of how different components within the braking system, in theory affect braking performance
- Expectations of how your system will improve these
- Results from controlled experiments or observations showing how your system improves these. ("I outbraked a Seat Leon R" don't suffice, for example. Braking distances, deceleration rates, etc, would).

Look ive lost the plot where is this going paul????  I only speak as ive found and as you may have noticed i dont repeat data read somewhere parrot fashion and challenge that i dont know! What i have done is make basic statements and produced pics to back them up so the non rocket scientists of the vw world can understand what im saying! that includes me and after all this drama ive had wiv you +others most would have done a bunk with there tail beween thier legs! good job i got a lot of confidence in what i believe in or i`d have done just that! Im a nice bloke and i try and help people reach the dreams they have and hopefully install them with confidence in the ideas i have not convince them everything they thought they knew till i popped up was worthless! I aint goin nowhere till im sure no ones interested in what i have to offer and unless you can find any flaws in my efforts that actually count i suggest you and i agree to dissagree and leave it at that.

golfgod said

Look ive lost the plot where is this going paul????  I only speak as ive found and as you may have noticed i dont repeat data read somewhere parrot fashion and challenge that i dont know! What i have done is make basic statements and produced pics to back them up so the non rocket scientists of the vw world can understand what im saying! that includes me and after all this drama ive had wiv you +others most would have done a bunk with there tail beween thier legs! good job i got a lot of confidence in what i believe in or i`d have done just that! Im a nice bloke and i try and help people reach the dreams they have and hopefully install them with confidence in the ideas i have not convince them everything they thought they knew till i popped up was worthless! I aint goin nowhere till im sure no ones interested in what i have to offer and unless you can find any flaws in my efforts that actually count i suggest you and i agree to dissagree and leave it at that.

Ok put simply: You've come along and said "you should have a direct action servo". I say to you "Why - prove it with scientific facts and qualitative measurements/comparison"!

I can't find any flaws because there is no information about your system. Give us all the info we're asking for and we can ask about it and you can expain/put us right. Fair enough?

I need to get my pc sorted out can someone please go to photobucket  search VWtopwerks and put the rest of the pics up please

golfgod said

I need to get my pc sorted out can someone please go to photobucket  search VWtopwerks and put the rest of the pics up please

There aren't any more pics related to the servo setup…  :dontknow:

My old 1994 escort van has a lefthand servo- presumably it was also cheaper for them to bolt on a transverse link system onto the fewer-in-number rhd vehicles than have unique integral sheet-steel components?

In my humble opinion, being a hands-on kinda guy and having now fitted a direct-action-servo to my mk1, using the original Mk1 steering column position, Mk1 brake pedals and the famous Mk1 clevis pin, this modification is surely not really rocket science??

I found that to fit a Mk2 servo and master cylinder required either moving the whole column centreline inboard so that the original clevis pin would line up with the servo shaft (which would bugger up the originality even more), or 'relieving' the chassis leg so the servo was shifted 10-15mm over. Naturally the bottom bracket for the steering column then needs to be modified because it is not wide enough to clear the servo housing. I spent way too much time during my conversion trying to allow the servo to bolt in securely using the original four studs while making sure there was enough reinforcement in the bulkhead (now that id cut another hole in it) to give strength to the steering column so that it doesnt snap off while braking mid-corner from 100mph and ruin my day.

I want to see more pics golgod- ive now had my head in the footwell of my Mk1 enough times to not be quite sure what the amazing design is that you wont tell us about?

Im all for custom fabrication and modifying in the name of style & fun & safety so this is not an attack on any of your work, rather its that you aint really playing fair on the forum  :?

Have you all read The Mk1 Golf Owners Club  :dontknow:

Quality reading…  

Mr Golfgod,

You didn't invent the bread slicer by any chance did you?   :wink:

Was up boys you a little bit green? sheet metal you nob jockeys thats just a silly ol cover to make it look nice! Wat you want to see the clever stuff behind the bulk head? hmm dream on… you see thats the difference between myself and some of you self appointed xperts is knowledge! and i aint dumb enuf to just give away that to the likes of you little mugs and really dont keep on wiv the attitude cos its gona get you in bovver! You aint got a decent pic between your spitefull jelous selves av ya? SHOW ME SOMETHING I`D BE IMPRESSED WITH PLEASE! Dont judge that you know nothin about your makin yourselves look daffy duckin stupid as anyone wiv half a clue knows by following the posts i actually do know and am genuine about what ive said and shown! its very obvious a few little mugs amongst this big or not so small world have wallowed in a world of ''bow the daffy duck down boys you aint worthy'' ,''im the best and the most gifted in this scene''  Get real and grow up bitches!

Well done "golfgod". Now no-one will really care what you say - you are going against the whole ethos of an enthusiasts forum.

The point is we come on here to share knowledge of a joint passion, not fish for "you are the greatest" compliments.

After your responses no-one will care whether you genuinely have come up with a novel idea with fantastic engineering skills or not. All you will be known as is the idiot who liked to shout his mouth off and can't use punctuation…

Why come on here and proclaim you have the best braking mods for a mk1 when you won't say how you achieve the claimed results?

just stop all the ol crap an i will show you wat you need to see it really is your loss cos we all drive the same chassis dont we? fair aint here nor there its like i said days ago i got money on this thing stop tryin to bully me into being an idiot cos it aint gona happen! what ive got going on behind the bulkhead is probably far less complex than you may hav imagined and some of you are gona want to kick yourselves up the arse for not thinkin of that! and by the way my last post  only applied to the less civil members of this site and not by any means the majority! when the time is right i will show the thing i know is doin your head in just bare wiv! and till then no more of tryin to publicly mug me off and or other not nice comment or i`l just pull the plug simple as, How you gona look at the end infront of all your deciples red faced and bitter stop it jelousy aint healthy, Envy is a different ball game! healthy must be cos if i had not felt it in the past i`d` never have cracked on to reach similar levels of achievement as those displayed several decades ago at shows and mags! stick wiv that one some of you would do well to!