Pierburg to Weber Conversion

Hi All,

Hoping for some guidance on 2e2.

Only driven the car once - 3 years back. It drove nicely 100 miles but I can't remember if the car was warm when I picked it up. It may have been.

It hasn't started since. Now trying to sort it.

Identified it as a Pierburg 2e2 but there is no power cable at all to the TTV or idle cut out solenoid. There isn't any spare cabling for it anywhere. So I don't think this is original, particularly as the Pierburg according to my Solex / Pierburg manual wasn't fitted  until 1983/4. There are other oddities like electric roof and electric windows which weren't around in 82.

My question is - does anyone know if I can I start and run this without electrical power to the carb? I mean - the guy who sold me it had it starting when I collected it, and there was no power to the carb then either!

From what I can tell, the solenoid idle overrun cut out and the TTV only work on the vacuum circuit, and as described well by Skyrocket automotive on you tube combine to route vacuum to the 3 / 4 unit to pull in the pin to allow the throttle plate to settle down to normal idle.

Currently the 3 / 4 unit is fully retracted when cold and there's an air gap between the 3/4 unit pin and the throttle plate. Fully closed throttle - does that stop all fuel going in to engine? There is a jubilee club holding the 3/4 unit pin out - maybe that was to stop the 3/4 unit fully retracting as it has clearly been adapted to not push forward at all.

In my 100 mile drive when I collected this, I stopped a few times to top up water and it restarted and ran from hot no problem, but I have never been able to start it from cold.

Anyone any thoughts other than to get a Weber?  I've been through rubJohnny's post on pierburg, watched countless videos on it, now have the Haynes book and read it from cover to cover, but I haven't found anything describing impacts of no power to TTV / Idle Cut Out and whether I can compensate for all of this just by holding throttle down to the 2000 rpm position manually till it gets warm so the wax stat can handle the fast idle?

It seems from the views and response that actually Pierburg is tricky enough at the best of times - let alone one with parts and connections missing.

So Weber it is. Even though I won't be eating for two months to pay for it. However it is unlikely to get any cheaper with time.

Just ordered. Double checked the engine code prior to ordering and turns out its an EX 84 which makes it 1.8 auto even though its registered as a 1.5 auto. Which is a pleasant surprise and helps to offset the financial pain of a brand new weber carb.

As it runs beautifully now for as long as I feed the carb with easy start hopefully once new carb is fitted it'll be all good.

The Pierburg is a great carb when working well but it is a complex bit of kit and find anywhere that can work on them is tricky.
The Webber is simple and as long as you buy the right one for your engine as the jet sizes change for different size engines. There’s a mixture screw, idle speed screw and that’s about it..
It’s worth getting the car on an exhaust CO machine at a garage (same as MOT) to check the mixture once you got it running.


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Make sure you have ordered a Weber for auto , as they have different throttle connection to manual ones 👍🏽

Thank you jazzy dog and Mark1GLS.

Ordered through fast road car on Friday and it was a great price and delivered yesterday - Tuesday. Really impressed with Anthony.

Fitting it today is causing a few issues though. Mainly because of the Frankenstein nature of what I discovered I had. Not a standard fit at all. I'm not sure if I should start a separate thread for those issues or keep going here.

I'll go here first off, but if I should have started a new thread can someone let me know and I'll switch.

Thank you!

As above, I'm in the process of switching to Weber and have hit a few snags and I'm hoping someone can help.

I'm not sure if it is bad form to list a few issues in one thread or not - please let me know if it is wrong.

1) In the Weber conversion you have to re-use the throttle body heater off the Pierburg 2e2. My heater was there, but no cable as it had broken off at join. Managed to clean up cable stub and got a solid solder onto it so it now has wire. Resistance tested the wire to the solid brass plate on front and it was 'OL'. Not sure if that is good resistance or just no connection. What should I be looking for? Ive tried to get a replacement and simply can't. Everyone says no.

2) Even without the cable on the throttle body heater it still wouldn't work because there is no power from the loom to it. Originally a 1500 auto without a Pierburg it is now a 1800 auto with a pierburg. Whoever converted it simply didn't wire up any of the electrical connections to the pierburg other than the auto choke. Now with the weber the auto choke is redundant and so I do have a spare cable I could link to the throttle body heater. Does anyone know if the throttle body heater is just a straight on / off when the ignition is on or is it thermostatically controlled? I can't see anything thermo near this in any of the diagrams I've seen.  Is the Throttle Body Heater needed? What would happen if I couldn't get it working? Would the car work?

3) Kick-Down. In the weber fitting instructions it says 'remove the spring retaining clip from end of the accelerator inner cable and slide off the kick down spring. Retain for new install'. Well, there's no such items on mine. I think this refers to item 4 in the image below - a spring sleeve that goes over the inner cable. Does this seem right? All I have is a bare cable with a plastic retaining block on the end with the hole in the side for the locating pin. The inner cable is jointed by a clip. Not sure if this is standard or not. I have a suspicion that the clip jointing the two metal cables is actually the retaining block fitting snugly and unmarked into 5 in the image - with the spring bearing off that and onto the stop end at the other end. In my car definitely no sleeve spring and struggling to work it out.

In trying to work this out I've also realised I have no idea how this works. As far as I can see there's no cable from carb to auto box. Should there be? If not, how does a spring on the end of the accelerator linkage with no direct connection to the box trigger a kick down? In the Haynes manual (picture below) it does show item 1 a 'kick down switch' but doesn't show it connected to anything.

So it seems I'm missing the kick down spring in the end of the accelerator linkage inner cable which an auto 'usually' has. Is this important? I guess so, although I can't for the life of me see how.

Any help on any of these points really gratefully received.

Thanks

  

 

There is no "kick down" spring per say.  They use the return spring on the Carb, or in my case it was the throttle body return spring.

If all your cables have been lubed, that is you can dribble
Tri-flow lube Down your cables, that is you can take the accellerator pedal cable and carefully lift it up, and spray the lube down it, and keep it up in the air so it can run the length.  

Same for the Bowden cable from the Carb to the Kickdown  the Return spring on your carb should suffice.

Have a look on ETKA and check the part number for the spring. You will also need the clip that holds it in. Check it against a Mk2 Golf version as well. If it is the same I should have a spring and clip here if you cant find one. Check the cables as well. Again if they are the same I should have one here.

Briano1234 said

There is no "kick down" spring per say.  They use the return spring on the Carb, or in my case it was the throttle body return spring.

Hi Briano,

Thank you for the reply! In my case, the issue is all at the carb end of the cable. In the Weber conversion kit instructions I read the 'kick down spring' in their language as being part item 29, and the retaining clip as 31 - it would fit with the process description.

Looking at EKTA, as per attached photo, there should be an item 29 for the spring, an item 31 for the retain clip but also 2 of 23 and I of 30. None of which I have - also as per attached picture. That whole cable end structure is AWOL.  I could just attach cable as is to the throttle body mechanism simply enough, but without the spring 29 and the other bits will I lose kick down?

I don't fully understand how it works is one thing, but I guess not so important. I just need to work out a way of rigging something up that works.

All the parts I numbered above in EKTA show as 'no vendor listed' when I click on them.

I am not sure how to fix this. The cable I have has the joining clip on it you can see pointed at by one red blob, and a lug at the end that can fit through the hole on the throttle lever.

Any thoughts on how I can modify this? I haven't been able to find anything anywhere that says how or anyone selling a cable similar to the one shown in this EKTA pic?

Or can I just attach the lug at the end into the throttle lever and adjust it till the tension is fine? This is how it was set up with the Pierburg and I guess it kinda worked. I'm just thrown by the whole 'its a kick down spring' that Weber instructions introduced.




 

Briano1234 said

Same for the Bowden cable from the Carb to the Kickdown  the Return spring on your carb should suffice.

I just have a single cable hitting the carb which I have been calling the 'accelerator cable' as this is what the weber instructions call it. It connects to the throttle arm. It disappears towards the front right of the engine bay (as standing looking at engine bay from front) and I think this is the pic you showed.

Its that cable at carb end I am trying to attach and which the pic I attached showed bears no resemblance to EKTA diagram of what should be in place.

Vic said

Have a look on ETKA and check the part number for the spring. You will also need the clip that holds it in. Check it against a Mk2 Golf version as well. If it is the same I should have a spring and clip here if you cant find one. Check the cables as well. Again if they are the same I should have one here.

Hi Vic,

Thank you! Looking at EKTA and every model year between 1979 and 1992, the auto Bowden Cable into the carb comes with the same set up - as I mentioned in response to Briano123 - part 23 x 2, 29, 30 and 31 and 37.

So it looks like a universal style cable for the auto's.

But without knowing how the 'proper' spring attaches to the throttle actuator in an auto I don't know what solution I need. For example, the Bowden outer casing is secured by the nuts, fine, but does the spring then go AFTER the throttle cam?

If I knew how the kick down worked, it would be easier but my guess at the moment is that the throttle cam / actuator is attached at part 37 in the image above, and that goes before the spring, clip and parts 23 / 30.

I am surmising that in the auto the throttle maxes out  but then there is still the cable travel after that point which is the spring. So the throttle cable keeps on moving even after max, but it does so by compressing the spring which in turn is what triggers another cable off 15 the Bowden holder into kick down.

If this is right, then I think I need a mechanism for locating the connection to the moving throttle cam on the core cable of the Bowden, then the spring 29 bearing off it / something similar and then the spring retention on the end.

Not sure if this makes any sense, but if you do have any cabling solutions to this then please - yes! I'm interested! DM?

Briano1234 said

Same for the Bowden cable from the Carb to the Kickdown  the Return spring on your carb should suffice.

Sorry Briano1234 - last response to your post. Is there a Bowden Cable from the carb to the KickDown? I only have a single cable to the carb - the one that actuates the throttle cam.

I wouldn't be surprised if there should be a separate cable down to the kick down from the carb as much of the work done by prior owner to convert this to 1.8 / pierburg has been done very partially. And even in the Solex Pierburg manual I managed eventually to track down there is NO setup on auto 2e2 at all.

I can find no pictures of how the throttle cam / kick down linkage is supposed to be either for auto 2e2 or auto weber. Haynes manual shows nothing. Google won't show anything on this either - as I can find. I'm literally flying blind. EKTA doesn't seem to show a separate cable but any pics / explanation of what the connection should look like very gratefully received.

The Cable from the Accelerator pedal is the accelerator cable,  on automatic transmissions (010) it attaches to the hooked or lower arm of the Kick-down lever.

The other end or upper arm of the Kick-down lever is attached to the Bowden Cable, then to the butterfly lever on the Carb or the Throttle body.

If you had a Manual Transmission, then your Accelerator cable from the Pedal would go straight to the Carb, or the Throttlebody.

Since the Manufacturer of the Carb, or Throttlebody doesn't know what you have for a transmisison, they refer to it as the Accelerator Cable.

I Hope it is a clear as mud.  

Manuals take one Cable, Autos take 2.

Here are some of the 010 manuals

see page 46. Sorry for the crappy pictures, but my Scanner at the time wasn't the best.

https://www.reflectionsandshadows.com/a1-tech/BIGATSG.pdf

Also see:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/010_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

and
The 010 Lost Knowledge Thread | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum

Briano1234 said

The Cable from the Accelerator pedal is the accelerator cable,  on automatic transmissions (010) it attaches to the hooked or lower arm of the Kick-down lever.

The other end or upper arm of the Kick-down lever is attached to the Bowden Cable, then to the butterfly lever on the Carb or the Throttle body.

If you had a Manual Transmission, then your Accelerator cable from the Pedal would go straight to the Carb, or the Throttlebody.

Hi Briano1234, the pictures are great thank you. Really helpful. Particularly page 5 of the sympatico link (although I couldn't get the 3rd one to open).

This shows the set up well, as attached. What I now know is that cable from pedal to kick down lever is fine.

The cable from the kick down to the carb is the problem. The image shows that the spring does go after the throttle cam which is what I have been trying to work out. Which is fantastic to know. I'm guessing the spring is a compression spring so it squeezes tight after full throttle reached.

The problem is my cable isn't one of those!

My cable has been jointed as can be seen from the pic above. And the new end that has been attached looks like it is one from a manual gearbox - not an auto from what I can see on EKTA.

I've only driven 100 miles in the car since having it and never noticed it kick down - maybe it couldn't because it had a manual cable end lashed onto the auto cable from kick down lever to carb!

Thank you so much in helping me get to this.

Does anyone know where I can get hold of an auto cable end setup? Vic do you have such a thing?

That is a compression spring, it looks to me that it keeps the cable tight on Decell or return of the butterfly.

It appears that there is a clip ("C-Clip") that holds it on the cable bit.

Maybe some one here has an auto with Carb, that can snap a few pics.

The Cable part number is NLA at VW here but there are some shops or dealers that may still have it in the Euro theater.

I would be more concerned with the bits and bobs of the cable.

Briano1234 said

Maybe some one here has an auto with Carb, that can snap a few pics.

I would be more concerned with the bits and bobs of the cable.

Agreed. If anyone does have a pic of an auto / carb showing the linkage it would be great.

Heritage seem to have some springs and retaining clips, but no auto cables. I can't find anyone else who does here either.

From what I understand it should still work without all that stuff, but won't have kick down. If I can see what I'm trying to replicate with a pic from someone hopefully I can safely lash up something that will do the job.

Thank you for your comments and links. It's been really helpful.

I have a spring, clip. Iirc there are two different springs but either will work.I've also got a Mk2 Golf Auto cable but you'll have to check against ETKA to see if its the same.

Vic said

I have a spring, clip. Iirc there are two different springs but either will work.I've also got a Mk2 Golf Auto cable but you'll have to check against ETKA to see if its the same.

Thank you. I'll dm you about the items.

Just as a quick update on this - thank you to everyone who contributed to this - and particularly to Vic who was able to provide me with a legitimate Auto cable and a number of guidances on how to fit the thing.

With the cable now fitted and the weber installed it started first time. So pleased. It runs really nicely.

Unfortunately - it created a large puddle of fuel on the fuel by the rear wheel so further to explore. I'm going to start a thread on this separately.

For clarity on auto boxes:

- the solid metal bar part of the cable goes through a ferrule (metal pin with a hole in) on the throttle arm.

- the stop on the metal bar goes in front of the ferrule.

- behind the ferrule the compression spring just rests up against the ferrule

- and is kept in place by the circlip at the end of the bar (which is fiddly to attach)

- and the whole throttle lever is pulled back by the tension spring at the back of the carb.

Simple when you know how!

Thanks once again.

Thank you.