Auto wont start!

Hi all, we broke down at cruise to the prom 2 weeks ago. RAC said starter motor was shot and had to be recovered home. The car is a 1.8 Clipper Automatic, I have just changed it and the car will not turn over, just a very vague click. Car has factory immobiliser on it. I was under the impression that if you put a live feed to the solenoid with the key in the ignition position it should fire as you bypass the whole ignition circuit? This is what the RAC said and did with no success. Can anyone help please it's Bristol Volksfest, next weekend, cheers

Have you measured the battery voltage, including during trying to start it? If so, what are the readings you made?

Automatic….

What year is your car, as there is a starter interlock on the 90's I have the fix for that, as well as the Bristles on the PRNDL cover Falling into the electric selectors and then insulating the Park or Neutral so when you try to start it NADA.

There is the Heat Soak relay that is a BIG thing to have installed.

90's with DIgi, the CTS sensor can cause issues with no start warm.

A click indicates to me that the Solenoid is doing something, but power is missing. So most of your other things don't work.  

Since the starter was replaced I hope they used the correct starter for the Flex plate, there is a Solid Flex Plate and a Spoked one, you can't use the Solid Flex Plate starter in a Spoked or you will chew the starter ring.


Check or better yet Replace the Battery to Frame and Frame to Engine/tranny earth.

Then Check your Positive cable between the Battery and the Starter.  

Thanks for the reply guys, am going to have a look later this afternoon. Car is a late 1989 Clipper. I'll post up any findings. Could I put a direct feed onto the starter just to rule out a dodgy replacement?

sparkstu said

Thanks for the reply guys, am going to have a look later this afternoon. Car is a late 1989 Clipper. I'll post up any findings. Could I put a direct feed onto the starter just to rule out a dodgy replacement?

In theory yes but in practice its not easy due to its location. Obviously the thick wiring to the starter is another area, as is the engine earth strap. But I didn't want to confuse you with loads of things. Measure the voltage, its likely the battery has gone a little flat.

Install the heat soak relay or verify that it is installed.

Starter relay for heatsoak problems | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum

With it installed you remove about 2 meters of wire between your ignition switch and the Starter solenoid.

Your Solenoid will get full battery Power to the solenoid.

Find this wire it runs from the top of the transmission to the Solenoid.  This wire is from your ignition switch.



With the car in park,,Brake on,,,  Key to the run position not start. Jumper that wire to your Positive Battery post.  

If your battery is low you will get a click.
If your battery is good the starter will engage and the engine will start.

I placed my heat soak relay on the passenger side inner fender.

The nice thing is that you can then jumper that relay with a Screwdriver, and the car has a under the hood "remote" start.

I have never head of a factory installed immobiliser.
I know that I have seen my fair share of after market alarms and Radios cause flakiness.

That's a great mod but its unnecessary - a properly maintained car will start with the solenoid wired in the normal way, through the ignition switch. And also, if the battery is low, its quite possible for the solenoid to engage (click) but the car not start, so the issue isn't the solenoid but the battery itself.

Right, Paul you may well have been right. I put a booster on the battery and the car started, charging overnight. If I want to check the voltages what should I have during normal running and during the cranking of the engine I want to know if the alternators ok? Cheers

I'd want to see something approaching 14.0V or more during normal charging. Excessive voltage, eg over 14.8V, is bad too since it will gas the battery and you'll need to top it up (if its not sealed) or throw it away if it is.

At rest (ie after a few hours of not running, and not drawing any loads) a starter battery should be 12.8V; during cranking, 11V or so but most cars will still start even if this figure is lower.

paul_c said

That's a great mod but its unnecessary - a properly maintained car will start with the solenoid wired in the normal way, through the ignition switch. And also, if the battery is low, its quite possible for the solenoid to engage (click) but the car not start, so the issue isn't the solenoid but the battery itself.

Here is the TSB from VW/Bentley late 92, for all model years of Automatics .

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/thread.jspa?threadID=3542&start=15&tstart=0

Right, update. Charged the battery overnight, put it back on car. Tried to start it and all we get is a click from the solenoid again. Tried the booster pack on the car also and that doesn't work either. Voltage on battery is around 12.6 volts and does not dip when trying to crank engine as it doesn't. It must have been a fluke starting yesterday so I would think I have an intermittent fault or loose connection. What do you think I should try next? I'm trying to think what would stop power getting to the starter, immobiliser or the switch thing on the auto gear shift??

A quick check might be that, despite just being rebuilt, the solenoid may be slightly sticking. Sometimes they do this when left for a while. So its worth a tap with a hammer.

Then, its worth checking the main wiring to the starter motor - for example cleaning up the terminals both at the starter motor and battery ends. If  that doesn't solve it, then its worth checking other stuff such as the starter motor spins (would need removal to check, which is a pain!!!) and that the engine is possible to turn over (eg using a bar on the crank pulley).

Also check the engine earth strap but since it was untouched, it shouldn't have gone wrong during the starter refurb.

Briano is correct, a hot start relay might be required if the wiring, fusebox or ignition switch are worn. It is a valid VW repair shown in ElsaWIN which is the workshop manual VW use. That plus you can see the VW technical bulletin on the subject in his link Depending on what the issue is you might be able to fix it, you can replace ignition switch easily enough but replacing the wiring to a suitable standard is a bit more tricky.

to test if you need a hot start relay jump the starter solenoid with a thick wire from the battery, its the red/black wire terminal. Though this is easier said than done thanks to the starter position!

If jumping the starter gets the starter cranking over nicely then you can probably install a hot-start relay to fix it, though you need to check if at least some voltage is coming down the red/black wire! If not the issue is further up the chain. if jumping the starter does help, you could check if its the ignition switch by jumping the red to the red/black with a thick wire in the back of the ignition switch (with car in park, alarm/immobiliser disabled etc). if it cranks then you need a new ignition switch, if not its a wiring issue, alarm/immob problem, interlock system failure or fusebox problem.

If the above doesn't help the next step is to put a multimeter across the battery, check the voltage engine off and while cranking on the starter. you want around 12.4-6v engine off, and decent voltage when the engine is cranking over (or attempting to crank) if it drops too much the battery is not healthy or the starter is draining too much voltage. A duff alternator can drain the battery too iirc so thats worth a look.

the gearbox earth point on the mk1 is a poor choice from VW as its on top of the gearbox bracket, corrosion builds up between this and the gearbox as they are different metals Later mk2 golf fixed this by moving the battery earth to a stud on the end of the rear upper gearbox -> engine mounting bolt.

an easy test to show if the box earth is bad is to get a jumper cable from the battery negative to oen of the bolts holding the starter on. if that helps, then clean up and preferably upgrade the gearbox earth.

If not repeat the test but with the jumper cable from the battery live to the fat stud on the starter motor with the 13mm nut holding the alternator and/or battery cable on. If that helps its the live feed at fault. Again, this one is a bit tricky thanks to where the starter is as Briano says also, there are no factory fit alarms/immobilisers for then MK1 though there are a fair few dealer fit ones you could get.

The car's been sat a week or so, its NOT heatsoaked!!!! The solenoid is clicking, so it works. There isn't enough electricity to turn the starter motor/engine over.

Yes the relay mod is a good mod but its a red herring in this instance, also bear in mind we're talking about a new/reconditioned starter motor which might have been reassembled incorrectly, have a break in its circuit, etc etc

Yeah but it doesn't have to be heatsoaked for the issue to occur depending whats up with it. just refers to the fact that the usual issue with autos is with the starter when they get hot but it could happen at any temp if its something else in the electric system at fault

ive gone through some extensive tests to help id what the issue is, but if it turns out to be say, a problem with the red/black wire dropping voltage then a relay would be an easier way to fix it than strippign the wire out of the loom and replacing it

No worries, there's definitely a bunch of checks/tests which need to be done, possibly ultimately resulting in the removal of the new/recon starter motor as a sanity check that it spins! Its just a shame they're very inaccessible on the autos unlike the manual.

aye it was hard enough on my wifes 1.3 polo, I'd hate to even think about the job on an auto

I did it once without removing the downpipe or driveshaft; but looking at it again, I can't even get all the bolts off so I think either or both need to come off too for access. (I think my hands are slightly bigger now).

the real answer to this problem as with many others is... ABF it