water based paint - anyone got any experience / info?

Been digging around for some info on paints to use for some small bits of touch up work I have been thinking about doing.

Anyway, have used cellulose before , but seems that the latest thing is water based acrylics that seem really low in VOCs and generally much less hazardous to your health and the environment than even cellulose.

Has anyone used these / heard anything about them? I'm just after info at the moment, but might consider trying some of this stuff if I can get it mixed correctly for my car. Evidently most of the major manufacturers have been using water based paint systems for a while now on cars due to increasingly tight environmental regs amongst other things.

Chris

Don't know much about them only that most bodyshops have switched over to using it instead of two pack paint.

The thing I can't seem to work out is that most water based systems use a two stage process - the water based base colour, and then a clear coat to seal it - I am not sure if the sealing clear coat still needs to be one of the toxic 2 pack types, or whether a low toxicity water based clearcoat laquer can be used / is available?

I'd also appreciate info on any suppliers of this type of paint in the UK, and whether thay are able to mix the paint to match the colour of your car.

Markwon mentioned the maxmeyer line of paints by PPG, which I have heard elsewhere are very good quality. I'm particularly interested in their Aquamax line of water based paint http://www.ppg.com/maxmeyer/en/html/aquamax.html. Its not clear though to me whether this needs some kind of 2 pack clearcoat ot laquer applied after the base colour. Obviously this would defeat the purpose of going with water based  :wink: , but I was just wondering if anyone knew any more about this?

Chris

Chris- in reference to your original post, have not used acrylic as wasn't originally aware of it and had already started using cellulose. Think most Halfords aerosols are acrylic nowadays. Website doesn't explain the system much, just talks about time paint takes to 'flash off' before top coat?. My understanding is that two-pack top coat is a chemical reactor that hardens and finishes the base coat and needs to be applied within a certain amount of time. Obviously laquer can be applied whenever and does not chemically reacty with the base coat.

May be best to give Max Meyer a call? Be interested to try acrylic if it is a viable alternative.

Cheers

I'll try and find out from them what the deal is with the water based system.

I think the term "flashing off" is still used to describe the drying process of the water based paints, even though traditionally it is used to refer to the process whereby the thinners in traditional cellulose paint evaporate off as part of the paint drying process. With water based paint though the "flashing off" refers to the evaporation of the water which performs the same role as the thinners in traditional cellulose.

I am really interested in finding out if this is a goer as water based acrylics like the Aquamax stuff contain virtually no "nasties" compared to the alternatives. As long as the paint last a couple of years I don't mind that it may not be as durable as the 2 pack stuff.

This stuff has to be the way forward given ever stricter enviro legislation, so I think it can only improve in quality. Also as most car manufacturers have switched to water based paints I get the feeling the more toxic stuff will become less popular.

As I say its the laquer / clearcoating I am not sure about.

Chris

I've painted cars in both cellulose and 2-pack before now. The 2-pack name comes from the fact that the hardener for the paint is applied seperately - ie, paint in one pack, hardner in another pack (!). You have to mix the paint and hardener together in the right quantities before it goes in the gun. Too much and it goes off too fast, too little and it won't 'set' properly. A friend of mine had the front of his Merc done recently and it's now full of stone chips. Another spray shop said the last place hadn't used enough hardener in the mix and the paint has stayed too soft. The lacquer coat is simply another clear layer mixed in the same way. Only really needed for metallic or similar finishes I think.
Cellulose is a lot safer and it's easier to correct runs, etc. It takes longer to go hard though and you need more coats than with 2-pack for a good finish. Looks 'deeper' and less 'plasticy' than 2-pack when done right though IMO.
Cellulose can react when put on top of 2-pack and acrylic I've found.
Most aerosols are acrylic now I think. I did the sides of the boot in my Mk1 (Helios Blue - ie, metallic) using a cellulose aerosol that I had matched to my car by a local paint shop. This was Max Mayer paint and cost about ?10 to have it made up. On top of this I used a few coats of acrylic lacquer (an 'off the shelf' aerosol). Finish is good - not exactly a pro respray, but very acceptable for the inside of the boot !

Mark

My understanding of the water based products like the MaxMeyer Aquamax paint is that it is not a two pack type paint as you describe 2 packs (roughly my understanding too) - i.e. it cures / hardens in a similar way cellulose does, by evaporation of the water from the applied paint, rather than relying on a seperately added hardener?

I will need to use a clearcoat / laquer of some sort as I will be spraying metallic. However I think a clearcoat / laquer can also be used with non metallic "solid" colours to give a deeper colour / lustre….

The low toxicity is what really appeals - I don't have access to a spraybooth with extraction or the gear needed to use the pro stuff. The water based stuff sounds like it has virtually no toxic stuff in it so more suitable for home use I'd guess.

I have used cellulose before at home, but even that still contains some pretty nasty stuff like Xylene which you don't want to be breathing in too much of  :wink:

Water based paint will also make clean up and diposal far easier too… So anyone actually used the water based stuff then?  

Cheers,

Chris

chris the last time i enquired about water based paint i was informed that it for pro use only hvlp spray gun etc. and on the other hand it is very expensive. the way to go is 2k and use a good face mask and painters suit. water based paint was just getting started when i left the car business and feed back from various painters was that it was a load of poo and bring back 2k but penaltys for voc content were gettng stricter and more expensive so they had no choice but to go with water based. arm up back treatment from enviroment people

I think water based paint has moved on a lot even in the last year or so, but I am not in the trade so my opinion is based only on what I have read trawling the net and reading the groups.

To be honest I am in no hurry to jeopordise my health for a good looking paint job  :wink: . I have just finished a welding course at a local tech college that also taught full time bodywork and car repair / resto. They had their own low bake oven and a full pro booth setup there with air fed suits etc. The lecturer we had was very experienced and had run a bodyshop himself before moving over to teaching. I was trying to get his opinion on the different paints, and he said that 2 pack was the easiest way to get a good finish and was generally quicker to do that other types of painting. He also advised strongly against using 2 pack without a proper booth and air fed mask.

I think the difficulty with the effects of the toxins in 2 pack type paints is that the immediate effects of exposure don't seem that serious, but a few years down the line is when the real damage becomes apparant.

I'm just not willing to take the chance, hence the interest in the water based stuff   . I think the only way to find out more is try and locate a local supplier of the MaxMeyer stuff - their other paints seem very well regarded so expect their water based stuff will also be one of the better ones out there. Its probably a case of try it and see. I've no doubt it will be more expensive than cellulose or 2pack type paints, but hopefully that will be short term as its a relatively new product.

If it turns out to not be economic then I guess I'll be on the cellulose for the small jobs.

With a lot of skilled occupations I think there is a certain amount of reluctance to take new materials / approaches on board if what is currently used works well. If it ain't broke don't fix it…. and I understand that completely, but to be honest I can see with the way enviro law and regs are going I think over time the water based approach will become the only real option for commercial bodyshops.

All pure speculation on my part, but I'd like to try it and see what sort of finish is possible. I'll contact the company direct, but any idea for example how much per litre the water based base coat would be? ?10, ?30, ?50?

If I get any info I'll post it in this thread. I have a compressor capable of decent pressure and a budget gun so I might give it a go.

Chris

Health & Safety say that all 2k must be used in a spray booth, all paints must be water based by the year 2007.
I use a guy from a company called chipsaway, hes a hell of a lot cheaper than the bodyshops and does a bloody good job.
I first used him 3 years ago and still use him to this day, had no problems with any of his work and he comes round to my house.
There web address is www.chipsaway.co.uk, e-mail them with your post code and the local guy to you will then contact you

Call me a masochist, but I'd quite like to be able to do this myself  :wink:

Also funds are a bit errr "tight" at the present time. A bit like the welding I like to learn how to do things like this myself, even though for small one off repairs its probably more effective to pay someone else to do it.

For me owning an older car like the golf is as much about being able to fix / restore it as it is about enjoying driving it. I know I have probably whinged about things breaking / not working on it, but half the satisfaction is putting that stuff right. Its knowledge gained you can use again next time.

Even cheaper bodywork places are still a fair bit more expensive than DIY imho. Sure you get a better job, but its not always the case.

Thanks for the chipsaway link - its always good to have a list of recommended places to hand in case  8)

Chris

HI MATE,
hAD MY MK1 RETRO CABRIO A FULL RE-SPRAY 3 MONTHS AGO AND IT WAS A GREAT JOB, THE GUY WHO DID IT SAID IT IS A LITTLE TRICKER TO USE BUT IT IS A TOP JOB,