1600 Build for retro racer... HELP!

Hi I just started the work on my 1982 GTI 1.6 and trying to figure what direction should I go in building the motor wise. Hungary makes it very hard to change motors   so a 1.8 8v or 16v is out the question but I do love the revvy nature of the 1.6. The question is this, I bought a 1.6 carb motor from an early Golf (78 i think) from the scrap yard for literally peanuts and I am curious how should I persue this build and what direction to go in. I got some advice from the guy at TRS on the bottom end but the cylinder head is where I am stuck now as I read so many opinions but would like to know what is a good setup for this motor. Should I stay with the Heron head and build that up or use the 1.6 car head?

My goal is to have 160-170 at the crank. I do have a pair of Weber DCOE 40 and a pair of DCOE 45 carbs ( the DCOE 40s are off my Alfa Spider when I used to live in America). I'm trying to make a decent street motor but perform well in Tarmac hillclimb events so some top end will be needed but I can figure that out with cam work and jetting and carb setup. Its the motor setup where I am stumped cause its not a well… 1.8 like what I am used to…

Any ideas, sugestion, your personal experience please share as I would value it much  

Why is it harder to change an engine in Hungary than the UK? Hard or impossible due to red tape?????

Well they charge you a ton of money cause you have to re-register the vehicle and pay also another fee on top of that to make the car legal for the road and another fee for inspection, plus its a total nightmare if you buy the motor say from a junkyard or wrecker and they dont have the papers for the car which is required when you are read to re-register and get new MOT on the car. Its just one big headache just to put a motor in a car…  :?

No one??

My guess here would be to go for the head thats got the best flow potential, thats where all the powers going to be made anyway, i presume youre going to get the head worked on to improve it?
Port runner angles should help as a guide here as the steeper they are the better ( downdraughted), with the intakes being of primary importance but also consideration of the valve sizes you have is going to have a bearing on it.

I think 45 dcoe's will be too big, 40's sound the better bet.

I can give you an idea of what the 1.8 heads flow as standard for intake ports.
Hydro tappet heads generally go 141cfm @28 " depression, with shimmed tappet heads at closer to 150cfm@28" in standard condition, however that can be improved by quite a margin.

Exhausts dont usually show much in the way of improvement in my experience unless the valve is made bigger.

Can you take some photos of the intake ports on both heads?
Might be able to help better from a picture or two.

I know from a stand point now that the heron head is a good starting point for a build for some more power cause it already has larger valves than the carded 1600 head and the flow characteristics of the heron head are 10 times better. Originally I was gonna go with a godd port and polish of the  exhaust and intake of the head with a multi-angle valve job to get even better flow characteristic to the motor with a tad bit bigger intake valve and then build the top of the head up with the proper bits (bronze guids, ss valves, titanium springs ad retainers) but lack of support for this head has slowed me down greatly. I also have the interest of fitting atleast a 280 or 290 high lift cam but the fear of the valve smashing the piston cause of to high a lift on this motor with higher comp pistons is there. Also I know the valves on this motor or 2mm longer than the standard 8v which brings me to another brick wall. I figure the Dcoe 40 weber would better suit the motor as I did the math and all I need to do is get the right choke and main jet etc settings corrected but that being the least of my troubls at the moment… would it be ideal to use the card head and get bigger valves fitted as its a normal head and not a flat head and the fit different pistons to that block? getting the head to flow as well as the heron head isnt my problem as I can achieve that if the carbed 1600 shares the same valvetrain as a 1800 8v…

If the usual 8v head is easier to source and parts for it more plentiful, then you should go for that one, because for one thing, these engines have had lots of different mods performed over the years by various people and they can make some decent power with solutions to most all problems.
The other reason is parts availability, plentiful really compared to the heron head?

Theres another reason- combustion chamber size on the normal 8v head is smaller and compact with good squish bands for great mixture homogenity, you wont get that with the heron head.

As youre thinking about using a radical cam, piston to valve clearance is a check youll make anyway upon doing a dry build, so any new pistons you fit may need reliefs milling into them.
Be aware that valve shrouding will tend to become a problem if you go too large on the valves with the standard bore.

Id stick with the standard valve seat profiles, except to add a top cut into the alloy around the seat insert and blend it in.

This is one thing that I would gain with using a 1800 8v head or by even using the 1600 carb head. The benefit of a proper squelch area in the head for a more efficient burn in the combustion chamber. Also with using an 1800 8v head I have the option to place 43mm intake valves in the head to so that the motor would breath like it has asthma.

Common studies and with my experience a motor is like an air pump the more air you can displace with easy the more power you will make. The problems occur with the heron head with expanding on such things as increasing valve size to let the motor breathe better is another thing that hinders me again.

I will try to find an 1800 8v head and see if the oil passaged line up with the 1600 block but seeing the a normal 16v 1800 head wont adapt on I dont see an 8v head adapting on either. I read awhile ago germans were using another head besides the heron head to make great power but no info as of what head it was never surfaced. Yes milling the pistons so no valve damage is also an idea i was trying to put on paper and see if I could wok with but Im also concerned about the structual rigidity of the piston. Would it destroy the heat rigidity of the piston? If o option does surface for a decent motor out this 1600 then I may be forced to spend the 500,000ft to convert to a 1800 16v but I would leave that as a very last resort as I also do want to keep the car unique and retro spec…

I do want to get both heads flow check and see what type of numbers both heads are putting down and compare and see where to build upon the carb head if that is an option for me as these numbers are important if I annot go with a 1800 8v head…

Sorry for my rambling…  :?  :?  :?

For head comparisons

and the 16V
The oil drain issue seems to not be a problem and the normal 1800 8v head has a better squelch are as oppose to the heron head

which has no squelch zone, The motor is similar to a 12v vr6 and the wasserboxers that came in the VW vans where all your combustion and mixture of fuel and air being compressed is in the piston head

To get the sort of crank power you're looking for is going to cost a lot from a 1.6.. regardless of wether you stick with the EG lump or switch to something like a FD (carb)

Those power figures are common in grp H, Youngtimer and BergCup engines for the VW 1.6.. but the costs are high. For example I have a fully worked KWL head that is specced for the those sort of power figures but it cost me in the region of £2k without the cam.

The first thing, regardles of which engine you choose to use is valves, both the heron and chambered 1.6 heads will take 40/35 (1.8 heads will take a 41 inlet). Then work the ports to suit. Next would be a cam, I've run up to 328 degrees (shrick) in both types of engine (but the K Jet will need serious work to cope!!)

The EG has a very tough bottom end, remember Audi robbed its internals for the early quattro turbos..

My own EG ended up with 81mm G60 pistons in a decked block, with 40/35 valves and my old faithful Schrick 328 with twin 40 DHLA's.. what a noise!

I'm afraid to say though that my track car has ended up with a stock ABF 16v on megasquirt, it cost me £300, produces more power and is quiet enough for track days.. depressing…

That heron head looks to be a close replica of the porsche 924 heads engine code being "WA" of which i recently worked on.





The 16valve heads identical to the 20 vt heads apart from an extra cylinder tagged on, i did this one last year.


Now I'M rambling!

Good rambling though

The 924 head came out of the same Audi design office as the 1.6 Heron….

This is good rambling is this is the info I wanna hear. The money wont be a problem to send on the motor as for my plans its just an engine swap and the governmet its too much of a damn hassle here   . The heron head or its design has been taken use utilized I shall say several times in the Audi/Porscje/ VW group. Your setup sounds very proper, as for the head and valves on that motor would you by any chance have any flow numbers for the head you used and how streetable was the motor or I should say reliable as berg cup cars run for hours at a time and have to be reliable.

Overboost the 924 head and 16v heads look amazing. What code 16V head would it be tho? Later spec VW 16v lump?

KWL built some very beautiful motors themselves… 1.1 making 144hp if im correct in a Audi with mechanical fuel injection driven from the cam. INSANE!

Sorry don't have flow figures.. my own head was done by myself without the benefit of a flow bench and the KWL I didn't gte tested as to be honest I don't care what it flows, Rolfs heads do the business so why worry

Addited, would they have a website that I could check out there products?

I am in the process of modding out a 16V head to place on my block, I will be blocking the secondary oil drain. This should not be a big problem as Oettinger heads that were made for the H block had only one drain also, and they were 16V . If this works out and tested well after some miles of abbuse I would be glad to start modifying them for anyone looking for a better breathing head for there 1600 or to obtain something similar to Oettingers style and spirit. With the right work and spec sheet on paper I can have an easy breathing 9k motor