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another radiator/coolant leak

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83 dx gti

Hi all,

First apologies for the essay. Just want to describe the best I can given my basic knowledge.

Since I have had the car back on the road there have been a host of teething problems.

- Fuel lines went first, so braided & rubber ones from Mark Carter were fitted.

- 1.8bar high pressure oil sensor/switch was leaking at the oil filter housing so this was replaced too.

- Rocker cover was leaking near cam seal so replaced this with corteco bung/seal as well as rocker cover gasket rubber upgrade.

- wrong battery was given by supplier, so now gone from 40Ah to 60Ah and starts first time
Note: alternator on its way out as battery light stays on slightly when driving

- Whilst the above were happening, I noticed the coolant started pooling at the 2 feet of a new hella radiator & onto the floor below valance, and also dripping under the bottom hose to thermostat housing/inlet elbow junction.

Replaced this housing/elbow last week with black plastic one and refitted samco silicon hoses (these hoses were fitted about 10 years back & driven about 60 miles since).
New thermostat was fitted about 2 months back.

For good measure I tightened the bottom hose jubilee clip at the elbow too as I thought the mechanic could have given it a couple of more turns.
Also tightened the upper jubilee clip at the foot of the rad for the same hose.
Since tightened the rusted header tank outlet jubilee clip the best I could, as this area below the tank had a slight drip too.

IMG_7471.JPG

Noticed the rad over flow pipe hissing and spritzing at the header tank after the car is turned off also, so tightened this jubilee clip too.
Since I did this I noticed that only the hose side/off-side of the rad had slight pooling at its foot, near-side is pretty much dry.

Took the car for a couple of 15+ mile drives since and noticed the following mornings that the rad is now leaking even more after driving & being left overnight.
It never starts leaking straight after i've driven, it waits until i've gone to bed. The floor is wet across the width of the rad and the valance here is soaked.
Although the cooling system has been flushed the new G12 still has a orange colour around the edge when I peer into the header tank.
Where the coolant leak/drips under the rad were only pink g12 before, the leak under the rad now is both pink and orangey colour.

IMG_7466.JPG

Note: I have not mixed with boiled/distilled water, just topped up G12 to the minimum level.

Went away this weekend so couldn't asses anything until I got back late yesterday. I notices the overflow/return pipe had hardened slightly for the first 40cm run from the top of the rad. When squeezing it, it was making the same kind of crunch as a tip-top out of your freezer. Coolant appears to have cristallised slightly in there.
Also came to my attention that the overflow pipe does not have much slack at the top of the radiator, just goes straight into a 90degree or so bend.

IMG_7470.JPG

Gave the samco hoses a squeeze to see if there was any air block but it 'seemed' fine and it produced a bit of a juggle in the header tank.
Looking at the hoses from below today, maybe the squeeze I gave the lower hose has caused the coolant to trickle out again at the black elbow.

richievr, volkswarren, & Mike Horsbrugh have been very helpful on all the above so far.
So a few questions for you other geniuses to help me with if you don't mind:

- could it be a faulty new rad for not cooling the water & retuning it to header tank?

- could the tight angle on the overflow pipe to radiator junction be causing an air trap (which sends the water back down the rad to pee itself on the garage floor)?
If so where can I find one with more slack?
I plan to disconnect the overflow pipe tonight and give it a clean.

- Do I need to re-drain the cooling system and clean the header tank and then give it a go?

- could the water pump be on it's way out? but would that explain the spill?

- Do I have to release the header tank cap after driving it relieve pressure?


Cheers, Si.

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First, hose that has hardened is bad and needs to be replaced.

I did a fix for the radiator return to take the strain off the plastic pipe out of the radiator.

Radiator return upgrade. | Volkswagen Owners Club Forum.

Yes I used the screw type clamps as the mock-up.  I have since replaced them with fuel clamps.

The difference is that the screw clamps are designed for larger diameter hoses.  The width of the Screw Mechanism  prevents the smaller diameter hoses from sealing tight, and the hose if you look at it will be OVAL or elliptical and allowing the hose not to seal completely  and leaves a small gap at the screw mech.

The Fuel or Spring type clamps are superior as they control the hose to flange seal as they are Circumferential to the flange and they don't leave a gap in the hose that can leak.

Now with the early Rabbit's/Golf's/Cabriolets, or MK1's
there were 3 styles of Radiators used between 74 and 93.

There were the no res tanks and pressure cap on the radiator.

There were bolted at the bottom, and a "C-Clip" with a plastic collar that allowed the tank to vibrate loose and with the engine moving to the front and the back of the car in relation to the metal flanges, usually split the Tanks off the cores or Matrix and leaked like a cow going on a flat rock.

Then they developed the Pin mounted ones that the later Cabriolet, and mk2's used.  This is the best re-design, as its firmly mounted to the valance via the rubber grommets at the bottom, and with clips and bots at the top, this prevents the top vibrating at the mounts, but now you have a different leaky issue.

The leaks on latter mk1's are form the plastic flanges that bolt to the head, (t-stat) front and left radiator to head and heater valve, and the radiator outlets.

The outlets on the radiator can harden and become brittle so if you use the screw clamps they can over-tighten and either break, crack, or collapse the radiator flanges.

I have a link in the Archive Section HOW-TOS under my name that  has a big list of how-i-do-thats.  I have a large thread on (I HATE PLASTIC PARTS) giving all my fixes and resolutions.

As for why does it leak over night and not under pressure.

Well Pressure will release when the temp of the coolant is returned to ambient air temp.

When this cools, the plastic also contract a wee bit, and remember those screw clamps not equally tightening down in a circle, it will drip, drip, drip.

I have also found over the years that a clamp I placed on in the summer will leak in the winter, as the temps cool to freezing or below.  Also Screw type clamps will loosen due to the vibration of the engine torque on the hoses so they have to be re-tightened a wee bit.

Now Plastic over metal… Well let's look at it,
engine torque and the radiator hoses, which is going to break first, a plastic flange, or the radiator…50/50 odds on either.

Oh one last thing on plastic flanges they can crack not only at the hose connections, but at the bolt holes, and lastly they can OVAL out, and the seal fails.  I suppose that if someone designed a metal cap that you placed over the flange outer that longer bolts would hold faster, they would last longer, but what do I know.

Second last thing some of the replacement plastic outlets I have purchased over the years where the bolts go through steel bushes, the bushes are longer than the flange and the screws only are tightening the bushes to the head, so the flange can gap.  I have had to file or sand them flush….

I suspect that your original Radiator outlets may have small cracks or that your screw type clamps if replaced with the spring type as OEM, would better serve you with leak free driving.


Sorrier for my lengthy diatribe essay on response.

What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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What colour radiator cap do you have on the expansion tank?
Blue or black?

1988 Mk1 Golf GTi Cabriolet 1.8cc DX, K-jet. Daily drive. 317,000 miles and counting
1978 Mk1 Scirocco GLS 1.6cc FR, Webber carb. Weekend toy.

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Briano,

Thanks very much for the detailed response.
I will bear in mind that that fuel/spring type clamps are the ones to go for next!

Getting someone to fabricate the overflow upgrade might be a bit more tricky though. Is there anything more off-the-shelf I can use to make this junction instead?

Mark,
 
Your comments on other matters has helped by diagnose other bits n bobs recently. Possible something on the battery IIRC :-)

The cap on the exp. tank is blue which I understand should help release pressure.

Is there any hole on the inside of the front panel which rad water can escape down?
The middle of the front valance is quite wet. Unless it is running meeting there from each end of the rad due to the curvature of the front panel itself.

Theres a couple of new globs of coolant where i've replaced the 'stat housing/elbow too now! Looking at an INA brand water pump. Anyone running these?

Thanks.

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There are plenty of holes in the valance…..
some of them.



If you have pooling, then I would remove the shroud/fan or look at it with a good light to verify that the radiator hasn't tanked on you.

They make pressure testers, you replace the over flow cap, put 14 psi on the system and usually you will find the leaky culprit

I personally would look at the outlet flanges and tank sides on the radiator especially if it is a bolt at the bottom radiator…

What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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Thanks Briano. Holes aplenty!!

An update on the old girl…

Sourced a longer 7mm pipe which is about 110cm. Much more slack/give at the junction with the top of the rad. See pic.

IMG_7478.JPG

The new pipe has thicker rubber though slightly less open diameter. Does give a tighter fit at the exp. tank and rad junctions though. For now i've put the original jubilee screw clips on. They are definitely oval and never make it to fully round. Will source a series of fuel clips next to swap all round.

The metal pipe to water pump hose is currently a samco, about 15mm shorter than stock though. To be safe ordered an aftermarket one that has the same length as the stock one I removed recently.

IMG_7479.JPG

Will be draining the entire system and giving that exp. tank a good clean tomorrow. Hopefully picking up a INA plastic impeller Water Pump tomorrow too from GSF.

Whilst i'm at it, planning to have a new regulator added to the refurbished alternator by end of week too.

Ta

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say noooooooooo to a plastic impeller.  
I have had issues with them in the past.
breaking off the shaft.


What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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Thanks Briano for the quick reply.

It's the best German brand one I could find. The Circoli brand ones are not so good I am told.

Any you can recommend?

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Salari has a evil metal impeller, but I had 2 take a dump after about 5 years for seal leakage.


What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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I bought one like this and it has a metal impeller.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-VW-GOLF-MK-1-1-6-1-8-GTi-1-6D-1-6TD-80-93-BRAND-NEW-WATER-PUMP-BACK-HOUSING-/151326974010?fits=Model%3AGolf&epid=1638085736&hash=item233bca603a:g:aQ0AAOSws65TmtD7

Coolant I use for older car, just replace it every couple of years. If you wait for the weekend there is usually extra discount. ready mixed and 5l is plenty.
You need to make sure you give the coolant system a good flush as you have used the G13 coolant which may be why you have all these leaks.

https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/engine-oils-and-car-fluids/antifreeze-and-screenwash/blue-antifreeze/?523770501&0&cc5_865

1988 Mk1 Golf GTi Cabriolet 1.8cc DX, K-jet. Daily drive. 317,000 miles and counting
1978 Mk1 Scirocco GLS 1.6cc FR, Webber carb. Weekend toy.

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Thanks very much Mark.

A bit fussy but are the Meyle robust parts not made in China? I've heard it is the same with Topran too.

Going back on what I said about Circoli… I did see a comment of yours in another overheating thread that you opted for a Circoli pump previously.
How did you get on with this?
I know Euro Car Parts sell this one, hopefully it comes with the gasket too.

Pretty sure the coolant I have used is G12.
Thanks for the link though.  :thumbs:

Another question is the fan switch.
Terminal into the fan switch is for a 2-pin
The terminal that goes into the rad switch however is a 3-pin (see pic).
The rad switch is a 2-pin (n/s foot of rad you can just about see in pic with white end piece).

IMG_7481.JPG

For MOT the plug/terminal was fitted upside down… meaning only 1 pin was connected so it overheated a little. It was turned the right way up afterwards. This means the 2 pins slot into the outer sockets of the terminal. So far there have been no overheating issues and the fan comes in during and after driving.

Do you advise a 2-pin terminal for the existing rad switch, or a 3-pin rad switch.

Sorry if that sounds confusing.

Ta

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G12 or G13 are similar, made for modern engine and not for me, I've seen/read people having no problems using it and others it caused allsorts of leaks… Up to you really.

The Meyle pump I've stuck on is fine so far, been on there about 12 months but at the end of the day it's a £30 part which is really easy to change, it's a simple bit of kit which just spins an impeller to move coolant around, as long as the casing in water tight you should not get much trouble from them as it's usually just the bearing which wears out. My last water pump was about 20 years old before the bearing got noisy and I changed it.

I got the Meyle one as it was cheaper then Euro car parts.

Just make sure you buy the water pump and housing as trying to split them can be a pain as the bolts rust an shear off, in the other post I may of been explaining this point??   :thumbs:

1988 Mk1 Golf GTi Cabriolet 1.8cc DX, K-jet. Daily drive. 317,000 miles and counting
1978 Mk1 Scirocco GLS 1.6cc FR, Webber carb. Weekend toy.

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An update since I finally got someone to take a look at it.

The coolant leak under the front valance was apparently coming from the 2-pin rad fan switch. This was trickling down to the lowest point in the middle.

IMG_7551.JPG

Not too sure if this was causing the other leaks though. Anyone?

Replaced with 3-pin but heater blowing cold only now.  O_o

IMG_7548.JPG
Lovely

Mark, after replacing the water pump I might have to drain again & take your advice on the blue stuff! There is still a leak under the new water pump though this looks like it is coming from where the pump joins the block.

IMG_7536.JPG

IMG_7539.JPG

There is a new surface (only) scratch/tear - 0.5mm tops - on the samco hose that comes down from the oil filter housing to new water pump. No water/coolant coming out though.

When it was left at the workshop for a few days it was fine!
Is it just the way i'm driving that causes this or is it just a vw thing?!?! :@
It has been nearly 3 days since it's been though, should I make sure I drive it everyday!?

re: rocker cover leak, had new topran one removed and replaced with elring. cam seal was done a few weeks ago too. this as well as dirko sealant hassignificantly reduced the leak but it's still happening in that corner closest to cold start motor. anyone?

IMG_7546.JPG

re: alternator. JPgroup regulator didn't fit but brushes have been sprung back out so making good contact with the stock regulator again.
loom for alternator was battered so this has been replaced and charging power restored again (so far). :-)

IMG_7552.JPG

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theres nothing wrong with g12 or g13 coolants, they are just updated versions of G11. I have read some rubbish in the past about the newer stuff begin bad for old engines, but if you look at a mk1, mk2, mk3 and mk4 engine they are all basically the same for the coolant system. its a metal block, alloy head, with a mixture of plastic and metal flanges, and rubber seals. Plus VW are not idiots funnily enough, they wouldnt sell a coolant to a MK1 owner which would damage their engine…

Nowt special on a mk1 lump which means it will suffer when a mk3/4 lump will not ;)

G12 and G13 is all I've ever used on my mk1 cab, plus my mk2 gti with all the various mk2 and mk3 engines its had, and any cars coolant system I've worked on in the past.

not that theres anything wrong with G11 of course, feel free to use it if you want it'll be fine too. Can go ahead and use anything you like really, so long as its a decent brand and designed for use in mixed metal and alloy engines it'll be fine. my mate usually uses GM stuff as he can get it dirt cheap, no problems whatsoever.

Hello my name is John and I'm a dub addict.



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rubJohnny… thanks very much.

I did take her for a good run yesterday and just checked on the garage floor, it's dry!! sods law!
maybe the workshop were lazy in not cleaning up the valance properly after the coolant had leaked.
the inside of the valance is dry but the coolant has attacked it very well. :-(

also, standing coolant vs painted garage floor = standing coolant wins & paint battered.

water pump and connections are dry too, though the underside of a couple of the hoses is wet. is this just condensation?
even though i wipe round the blue header tank cap, releasing the cap also hisses a release of pressure and leaves standing G12 on outside of header tank. stupid question maybe but is this normal?

Now another effing issue… driving her back from the workshop was fine as I said before, but driving her last night one of the belts started screaming like hell.
especially in gears 1, 2, and 3!!

IMG_7556.MOV


at first I thought a belt had come loose

opened the hood whilst engine running and couldn't see/hear anything unsual.
got home and noticed the lower belt which goes up to alternator and returns to water pump had caught the upper belt cover.
there was a series amount of black debris on the shiny new water pump also. see pic below.
the belt cover was removed again to put the elring rover gasket on and double-seal in dirko.
the is obviously the workshop's fault, as the image shows it is not sitting 'true' with the engine.

IMG_7572.JPG

as a temp fix, can anyone please tell me how to tighten the cover?
if it is from the rusted round screw with the rubber gasket between it, located towards the bottom of the cover (and say halfway along belt between alternator and crank),
how do i tighten this please?

IMG_7573.JPG


Many thanks,

Si
 

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take that bolt out and pull the cover up a bit, its possibly not located properly in the lower cover. be sure to check the lower cover is tight, the front securing T bolt thru the waterpump is often lost, though squinting I think I can just make out the nut on the other end?

Hello my name is John and I'm a dub addict.



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also see if you can spot any part numbers on the lower cover, if a late part has made its way on there somehow it fits a little differently to the upper so may explain it

Hello my name is John and I'm a dub addict.



My wiring diagrams and other documents have moved here:

VAG Documents & Downloads

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To my uneducated eyes, I have never sen a alternator fan that close to the timing cover.

The Alignment of the belt is probably why you are getting debris rash on the parts.

Just my two pence worth of opinion.

It is almost like the belt is too short and needs to be a tad bit longer to get the alternator fan clearance.
If the Alternator front bushing didn't go in to center the alternator then that is one issue with the alignment.
Another is that you may have a water pump pulley that isn't quite right.  From the alternator to the crank looks good, but the zig-zag from the wp to the alternator isn't correct.

A headed allen with a washer in place of that "bolt" may serve you better.

What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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good point didnt even notice the alternator fit! any measurements printed on the belt?  check the part number on the waterpump pulley as well, though from what I can see it looks to be correct for an 8v. if its out of line with the crank pulley the hub on the waterpump may be pushed on too far, often the bolt flange is a press fit on the shaft rather than all 1 piece

Hello my name is John and I'm a dub addict.



My wiring diagrams and other documents have moved here:

VAG Documents & Downloads

You'll need to sign into google/gmail for the link to work! (its free!)

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Jonny, Briano… thanks very much for the quick replies. Really appreciate it.

Before I took the car back this morning I tried to tighten that rusty Allen bolt but there's basically no thread let on the head. So it actually gets looser. 

To make sure she didn't squeel & scream en route I gave the cover some wd40 where the belt was catching; it worked.

Can you tell me what part number that Allen nut is? Doubt I can get one for end of today but would like to try. If not a screw slit will have to be made on the head of the nut.

Can I have the product name/or number for a longer belt too please?

Looking at the first pic in my last post above, I can see what you mean re: alignment of belt from pump to alt. And yes, even though I can't recall where exactly alternator was previously, I know it wasn't that close to the block. 

Cheers 

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