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Electrics die but car runs fine

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Most electrics suddenly die relay buzzes

Intermittent fault:
sometimes instruments, horn, wipers, ind icators, lights dont work, accompanied by buzzing indicator relay, which ceases if indicator arm is deflected (but no inicators flash). Cranks, starts and drives OK in this condition.

leave the car stationary, get in and everything is OK again, without having done anything! Drive to the shops OK, get back in and it's all buzzing relays and no electrics again.

two auto electricians have no idea. I fitted new relay plate, changed indictator relays, changed steering wheel switch module.

HELP!

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Have you checked the earth crow behind the fuse box.?

These sometimes  corrode causing all sorts of weird issues.

Ian

Cornish Host.
1980 VW Derby
Clive the Cabby
Ujum the Invisible
Mynx the  Tintop

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That should be crown not crow!

Although having a bird as an earth would also cause problems!

Doh.

Ian

Cornish Host.
1980 VW Derby
Clive the Cabby
Ujum the Invisible
Mynx the  Tintop

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Checked earths behind relay plate, and sprayed everything with elctrical contact cleaner

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Corl said

Checked earths behind relay plate, and sprayed everything with elctrical contact cleaner

Checking a ground and removing it and tightening the crimps are two birds of a different feather.
Spraying things with Corrosion preventer, and cleaner is likened to taking a wiz on a forest fire, makes you feel good but things usually re-ignite.

I would suspect that your Battery to Frame and Frame to engine/tranny ground needs to be replaced if still original…

Then I would look towards the ignition switch…when this happens if you jiggle your keys in the switch does it stop, as

first suspect is the main grounds, and or power lead off the battery….
 

What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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I moved battery to boot years before this problem, changed steerong switch modules, and when fault is presenting, makes no difference.

I'll re clean all earths mentioned above.

Concerned there could be a backfeed on a burnt out instrument circuit board, or maybe a break from the blue alternator wire.

Car runs fine atm!

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Well the X relay comes in to play, as well as the Earth and Power on the cluster, have you  spliced a new earth to the cluster?
Easy to do and it along with "plumping" the connector usually resolves flaky cluster issues, I did have a mylar connector become unattached from the backer, and when I would remove the connection to the cluster it would lay flat, but when I reconnected the connection of the cluster the copper foil would move away from the connection….

Moving the battery to the boot would be an issue with resistive grounds to the frame so I suspect it depends on where you grounded the cable to the battery and the extra batter ground on the ring connections that are usually attached to the main earth are they still good and grounded or did you move them as well.

I still suspect the ignition switch and or the grounds.
I have had new to me parts fail prematurely, and or out of the box bad.

With flaky operations you can't assume anything, you have to test and eliminate.


What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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Very informative, but certain terms elude me:

X relay:         yes I've checked and that relay is good
The cluster: whats that?
Plumping:    whats that?

Battery is grounded by one of the rear seatbelt anchor bolt holes, the main earths on the engine bay remain as factory.

Battery was moved in 1995, these problems only began couple years back when I moved out of the city, into the country side, with more damp wet winters, and corrosion under the wiper motor, so the car was as wet with condensation inside as out!

Thanks for the steers

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Very informative, but certain terms elude me:

X relay:         yes I've checked and that relay is good


But is the X circuit on the ignition switch good as that relay cuts out and reduces the load on the electrics at start, it is also called the load reduction relay. In the wiring schematics it is the X circuit at the top

The cluster: whats that?

The instrument panel (clocks as you call it.)


Plumping:    whats that?

It is where you take the shroud off the cluster connector, carefully remove the mylar, and on the plastic tongue of the cluster, you place one strip of electrical tape on the pad side of the tongue then replace the mylar and shroud, doing this will tighten up the connections of the connector to the cluster (clocks).

see: Improving your Cluster Connections and ground. | Volkswagen Owners Club Forum.

Battery is grounded by one of the rear seatbelt anchor bolt holes, the main earths on the engine bay remain as factory.

These bolts are easily corroded I know mine are, and they pivot.  IF you moved the battery to the back I would suggest that you change the battery earthing to one of the Bumper Bolts on the rear frame horn. (doesn't pivot), and doesn't usually corrode.  

Here is one on my Cabriolet.
Screen Shot 2018-08-16 at 9.27.38 AM.png

Battery was moved in 1995, these problems only began couple years back when I moved out of the city, into the country side, with more damp wet winters, and corrosion under the wiper motor, so the car was as wet with condensation inside as out!

All this points to flaky earths… Cleanliness is a must, after cleaning all your Grounds (main frame to battery then frame to engine Spray them with corrosion prevention paint.  

Again I asked about the ring connectors that are usually on the Battery ground cable bolt/nut.  Did you move those with the battery or screw them in to the frame at the front… Are they clean and shiny?

Screen Shot 2018-08-16 at 9.24.42 AM.png







What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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X relay
I've tried two alternative switch modules, cranking with a screwdriver. When the fault is buzzing, there's no improvement, still fizzes away

Cluster/Plumping
Understood, will add earth and tape per your advisory

Battery ground
Rear seatbelts have been removed, so earth is screwed tight to anchor point

Battery moved to rear, engine bay, Battery earths
The earths that usually go to the battery are screwed on the frame at front, where the batery earth strap is located

Battery moved to rear, engine bay, Battery lives
These are all screwed onto the starter

Conclusion
I'll include pics, one of engine bay for orientation, and anothe with the arrow pointing to lives located on starter motor.

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image.jpeg image.jpeg

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Oh, and I forgot: I installed a 'lights left on' idiot buzzer  years and years ago. Now when you adjust the instrument lights knob, the tone of the buzzer changes from low to high. The knstremnt lights don't illuminate at all since these problems began, even when all else is OK

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And . . . The front wiper no longer parks, it just stops dead whenever you deflect the wiper arm back to off, at all speeds

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The only thing I can think of that buzzes from the Clocks is the Low Oil pressure at High RPM it is a "L" shaped circuit board that is in the back of the Speedometer internally.


So I would think that you re looking at a Ground fault issue….or worse, water migration internal to the fuse panel.  (ie: rust around the windshield.)

When you moved your cables to the rear what did you do with the "Extra" cables that were attached usually to the Positive Terminal as in the Extra Take offs leading back to the fuse panel, and or the ring connectors that were attached to the positive battery post?  It could very well be one of those additional wires as one feeds the Fuse Panel on the 30 circuit.

A good write up as any for the "X" circuit.
The "X" Circuit from the Ignition Switch. | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum

I know I sound repetitive and harp on grounds but you may want to loosen and clean the main ground frame point from the Frame to the engine as things corrode, dirt/oil migrates in….Electrical atoms are wildly unpredictable, and why they need to be well grounded.

I have seen Starters that used Sensor wires to be the ground and burn through other things as in Clocks, clutch cables, speedo-cables (usually toasting the clocks), as well as accelerator cables. I have seen bad grounds eat ECU's and ICM's for starting.

Motor mounts that Break causing extra flexure in things that become iffy when the engine is running.  

I will also say that Intermittent Issues are a real pain in the posterior to find… Been dealing with those types of things for years and years with computers, bad grounds bad operating systems, as well as Drivers for Printers and wireless items….BSOD's are such a pain in Windows…..



What do Divorces, Great Coffee, and Car Electrics all have in common?

They all start with GOOD Grounds.

Where are my DIY Links?

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Back to the top
The only thing I can think of that buzzes from the Clocks is the Low Oil pressure at High RPM it is a "L" shaped circuit board that is in the back of the Speedometer internally.

I'll check this, but the buzzing is only ever from the indicator relay. The variable buzzing that comes from the idiot lights left on buzzer is what baries in tone when the indicator lights knob is turned up or down, and the instrument lights never come on.



So I would think that you re looking at a Ground fault issue….or worse, water migration internal to the fuse panel.  (ie: rust around the windshield.)

There was rust underneath the wiper motor, now fixed, but the fuse panel (relay plate) is not showing signs of corrosion on the pins, and its heat glued together at the factory



When you moved your cables to the rear what did you do with the "Extra" cables that were attached usually to the Positive Terminal as in the Extra Take offs leading back to the fuse panel, and or the ring connectors that were attached to the positive battery post?  It could very well be one of those additional wires as one feeds the Fuse Panel on the 30 circuit.

All these that ussually were on the battery positive were re routed to the starter motor, as my 2nd picture



A good write up as any for the "X" circuit.
VWVortex.com - The "X" Circuit from the Ignition Switch.

Thanks I'll go read this



I know I sound repetitive and harp on grounds but you may want to loosen and clean the main ground frame point from the Frame to the engine as things corrode, dirt/oil migrates in….Electrical atoms are wildly unpredictable, and why they need to be well grounded.

I have seen Starters that used Sensor wires to be the ground and burn through other things as in Clocks, clutch cables, speedo-cables (usually toasting the clocks), as well as accelerator cables. I have seen bad grounds eat ECU's and ICM's for starting.

Motor mounts that Break causing extra flexure in things that become iffy when the engine is running.  

True that!



I will also say that Intermittent Issues are a real pain in the posterior to find… Been dealing with those types of things for years and years with computers, bad grounds bad operating systems, as well as Drivers for Printers and wireless items….BSOD's are such a pain in Windows…..

Thanks for the suggestions, andy ideas on the wiper motor no longer going to park?
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