Safe to weld (near fuel tank)

Hi

I have a couple of areas where I need to weld to sort out some issues:



This first area is near the fuel filler neck (its just behind it, I think). Its just below the right parcel shelf side, where the seat belt reel should be.



The second area is just above the fuel tank. Its the little loop which the rear seat hooks into, which has become detached. Is it safe to weld in these areas with the fuel tank in place, or would I have to go through the hassle of draining and removing it?

Hi There,

I, unfortunatly I have exactly the same trouble as you, (also it seems we both have a black MK1).

Anyhow, I took it to a local garage, then said they would only do it without the tank on. If I took the tank off it mysel then it would cost ?65 for the welding.

My brother is a mechanic (we have no welder so cant do it ourselves), and his advice it to take the tank off.

Last time I took a tank off we had to drop the rear beam/axal thing.

And the bolts sanpped in, and that was a pain in the bum. we had to drill the bolt out.

Dont let this put you off, but if you tank the take off, be prepared you may have to drop the rear beam, hence have a large tin of WD40, and some new nut/bolts to spare.

Good luck and keep her going.

Unfortunatley the tank must be removed, no question. you just don't know where the sparks are going.   even and empty tank can be highly explosive.

Be safe, take your time, it will take allot longer to recover from burns 8O

Could I flush the tank of fuel in-situ? For example, I could drain it, disconnect the fuel supply and return lines, then fill it with water or something. I don't mind in principle, taking the tank off, but I just know that something will go funny, like those axle bolts will snap, or the brake lines, or something.

I am feeling unlucky at the moment, I took the door off, snapped one of the bolts, and it took 2 days to drill it out (I went through 5 sets of drill bits, in the end!)

The tank needs to be empty and totally cleaned of all fuel, petrol fumes ignite eaiser than the fuel itself, makes it very risky. I've looked in haynes and it doesn't give intructions for tank removal, so I'm diging through my bently manual as we speak

Don't put water in it, you'll have no end of problems later :wink:

Rob  

Tank removal is not in the bently manual, but droping the rear bean axel does no sound too bad. Just spray the bolt a few times before you plan to take it off and let it soak in.

When undoing the bolts give then a small turn to tighten, then turn to undo SLOWLY. Tightening the bolt first by a smidgen will break the rusted together threads and is less likely to shear.

Good luck, but do not take a short cuts, your a long time dead 8O

Fuel tank removal is in Haynes, I'm not worried about being able to do it, I'm just worried about the car being so rusty that important bits turn into dust, during the job.

Paul - if you drop the axle then spend ages cleaning the threads on the captive bolts with a wire brush and use LOADS of Plus Gas or similar. If you have to 'heave' on the nut then stop and clean further. You really, really don't want to snap one of those captive bolts (like I did - a TERRIBLE job to fix).
Good luck with it !
Mark

I just had a look at it, they're nuts (onto a captive stud on the body), not bolts, and they don't look in too bad condition - its possible the job has been done before on the car. I suppose if the nuts don't turn easy, I could grind them off, to 'save' the stud.

I assume you can simply disconnect the handbrake cables from the handbrake lever and leave them on the axle? I want to take the axle right away, becuase the paint on the underside of the floor is peeling and there is plenty of surface rust there. It sounds like the car will be off the road for a while, and receiving a lot of work.

As Rob says, to remove the beam bolts, liberally spray them with WD40 or, better still, Dinitrol  (proper penetrating oil).  Start by a very slight tightening to break the grip (not more than a smidgen, then undo half a turn…then tighten it again and spray it…then loosen a full turn…then tighten it half a turn and spray it ….then loosen a full turn…then tighten it half a turn… then wire brush the exposed threads and spray it again…then loosen it a full turn…then tighten it half a turn………etc.

It'll take you a while and is still a "L" of a lot faster then drilling out broken studs and the associated repairs….and you may wear out your ratchet and have dinitrol peeing off your elbows but the nuts should come off without snapping the studs…don't use any extensions or big "T" bars..3/8 drive is plenty big enough (if you eat 3 shredded wheats).  

I replaced my nuts with stainless steel and have actually put two nuts on each stud…not for strength but to help keep further rust and crud off the exposed ends of the studs.

It is actaually safer (relatively speaking) to weld with the tank full of petrol rather than full of petrol vapour.  Unfortunately, if it does catch fire, it ain't gonna stop burning your tank..and your GTI..and your garage …and your house (but hopefully not YOU).

REMOVE THE TANK

don't even think of welding it with the tank in situ…and make sure the tank is at least 30-40 ft away from where you're welding.

Good luck

Ah, found it, does not look to bad, But as you say things turning to dust is a problem and frustrating.  

A garage won't take a risk as there insurance will call it neglegence if they burn ther workshop down.

I have had sound deadening and carpets catch fire before and it not nice  

Sorry it not an easy job…… Its your choice at the end of the day I can't recommend anything but to remove the tank for saftey reasons, what you actually do is up to you.

Rob

Fuel tank removal is in Haynes, I'm not worried about being able to do it, I'm just worried about the car being so rusty that important bits turn into dust, during the job.

I'm just worried about the car being so rusty that important bits turn into dust, during the job .

Thats why we buy, drive , read , play and enjoy owning a MK1  Go for it Paul  


Cheers………

chudd said

Thats why we buy, drive , read , play and enjoy owning a MK1  Go for it Paul  


Cheers………

A car fanatic said to me " treat every problem as an adevnture and not a disaster" fixxing it then seems like a fun activity rather than a chore.

I simpathise with paul though because the bank never undertands the need for immediate funds

paul_c said

I just had a look at it, they're nuts (onto a captive stud on the body), not bolts

I was referring to the bits sticking out of the mounts Paul - captive studs if you like (although they do have heads as I found out when I had to cut a mount open to sort mine out). And a stud with a head is a ………

 :wink:

m6m62 said

paul_c said

I just had a look at it, they're nuts (onto a captive stud on the body), not bolts

I was referring to the bits sticking out of the mounts Paul - captive studs if you like (although they do have heads as I found out when I had to cut a mount open to sort mine out). And a stud with a head is a ………

 :wink:

Yep, I got muddled when I looked at diagrams and read the notes in my manual - because it talks about (if the thing snaps off) drilling a hole and fitting a bolt instead. Once I looked at it on the car, I now know how it all goes together. What I meant was, since its a nut which comes off (and not a bolt), I could conceivably grind the nut off, so I don't endanger the stud (which is fixed to the body).

Defo take the tank out Paul! We want you to stay in one piece!

Plus I know you're worried about things turning to dust if you remove everything but if that's going to happen better it does whilst car is stripped and you can fix rather than when you're hurtling down a B-road on two wheels! :wink:

…..you can fix rather than when you're hurtling down a B-road on two wheels!

Don't forget the door handle Hairy !

….as my olde Pappy used to say "There's nowt as stable as a three-legged stool"


Cheers

Just to join in the chorus - Tank off! Welding next to fuel tanks is for the mad and bad, particularly on an old car of which you don't know how vapour-tight the fuel system is. Read about a bloke who raced speedboats in the US in the 1930's. During an attempt at a speed record a fuel tank was damaged and in order to get the boat ready for another run he repaired it with blow torch in situ 8O - its all health and safety these days!

The axle is nuts are the hard bit depending on their condition. Fuel tank and rest of gubbins is easy. Have a look at my thread here. I had do identical repairs to mine.

markwon said

Just to join in the chorus - Tank off! Welding next to fuel tanks is for the mad and bad, particularly on an old car of which you don't know how vapour-tight the fuel system is. Read about a bloke who raced speedboats in the US in the 1930's. During an attempt at a speed record a fuel tank was damaged and in order to get the boat ready for another run he repaired it with blow torch in situ 8O - its all health and safety these days!

The axle is nuts are the hard bit depending on their condition. Fuel tank and rest of gubbins is easy. Have a look at my thread here. I had do identical repairs to mine.

Yikes - that's a fair amount of work. By the way, how do you plan to put the M10 thread for the seat belt mounting in? I thought you have to weld it in fron behind??? I will need to do a similar thing.

By the way, how do you plan to put the M10 thread for the seat belt mounting in

Ah yes - do that bit before you weld the repair panel into place - just like I didn't do . The original thread appears to be machined into a small panel which is welded into the inner wing - the panel helps spread the strain put on the fixing by the seatbelt. I'm going to make my own one up using metal and and a M10 nut, drill a hole in the inner wing for the bolt to pass thorugh then weld the panel into place. Tight space to weld in, but is possible.